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imagedental11
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yes is the interface milled?
Vazone
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shure
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imagedental11
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where can that be purchased? thanks in advance
DMC
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Works perfectly!! What do you want to know about it?
It's finished and nothing new to report??
We mill bars and abutments and other stuff everyday. :thefinger:....
Labwa
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I saw the versa mill at IDS. Nice piece of equipment. But it sells RRP at 118,000 usd with hyperdent.
EGE
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It is a serious machine. I visited their factory several times in South Korea. Very professional guys. We developped specific applications for their abutments, including premilled bars (about 15min).
French Cadman
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brayks
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I have just joined this forum so I am not familiar with the rules so if this post is inappropriate please let inform me of such and know that I am truly sorry.
If anyone is still interested in the VersaMILL you can contact our company and/or visit our Web-site at www.axsysdental.com.
We are the Distributor for the Open System VersaMILL in North America and it is a wonderful machine. I say this a someone who has been involved in the CNC Machine Tool an CAD/CAM business since 1978.
My love for this machine stems from my previous experience as a CNC Repair Technician (both mechanical and Controls/Electrical) as well as a CNC Machine Tool Applications Engineer and Sales Representative.
We chose to represent this machine due to its quality and reliability. Our customers are getting excellent tool life (from our competitively inexpensive tooling) and outstanding surface finishes in hard and soft materials.
FDA approved Pre-mill Abutments and Dental Bars with excellent machining templates developed by OUR own staff. Starting price is $99,500.
If anyone is still interested in the VersaMILL you can contact our company and/or visit our Web-site at www.axsysdental.com.
We are the Distributor for the Open System VersaMILL in North America and it is a wonderful machine. I say this a someone who has been involved in the CNC Machine Tool an CAD/CAM business since 1978.
My love for this machine stems from my previous experience as a CNC Repair Technician (both mechanical and Controls/Electrical) as well as a CNC Machine Tool Applications Engineer and Sales Representative.
We chose to represent this machine due to its quality and reliability. Our customers are getting excellent tool life (from our competitively inexpensive tooling) and outstanding surface finishes in hard and soft materials.
FDA approved Pre-mill Abutments and Dental Bars with excellent machining templates developed by OUR own staff. Starting price is $99,500.
DMC
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Welcome Steve!!
I thought Al had you guys as a vendor now or in the past? No?
Travis is the owner of this excellent forum.
I think the DTS, or Versmill is a nice piece also. I'd Rock One!
I'd ditch the DelCam and go for SUM3d myself.
DelCam is too expensive for what you get, and they do not like to teach customers anything.
My Haas was $99k just for the mill. The 4th and 5th come in seperate box. Some assembly required. LOL
You have to find/make your own fixturing system and then assemble the pieces, then program software in CNC controler and CAM and calibrate it.
You have to set up the tool probe system of your choice (I choose Renishaw stuff),mount it somewhere in chamber, write the programs to check for broken tool and initial tool length measurement, etc...
Haas does not help to do any of this. You are alone to figure it out unless you know someone who has already done this to ask questions. (You now know of at least One person, me)
I do absolutly love my Haas. No regrets at all. It was very fun and educational (and stressful at times).
My employees run it now, and we have yet to crash it. Now we make $$ with it, just as I planned.
I am sure the DTS mill would have worked as well? (Maybe?) I do prefer the Industrial-style tool holding system as opposed to the single collet/drawbar and little tooth-pick tools which all have to have the exact same diameter shank. This kinda sucks because you are limited to only that size for choosing tools.
I can't find all the tools I want to use in One common shank size!
We use some standard (Imperial) 1/8" shank, and 3mm, 4mm, 6mm, etc. to make bars and abutments. I think this is almost impossible to do correctly without this tooling system?
It's just in a different class of mill.
For those of you not wanting to go as extreme as I did, then the versamill (DTS) may be a good choice as a turn-key solution, but I doubt you will make much $$ by milling pre-milled blanks. Don't count on that as main use of mill to get your money back out of a $100k mill. Not going to happen.
I thought Al had you guys as a vendor now or in the past? No?
Travis is the owner of this excellent forum.
I think the DTS, or Versmill is a nice piece also. I'd Rock One!
I'd ditch the DelCam and go for SUM3d myself.
DelCam is too expensive for what you get, and they do not like to teach customers anything.
My Haas was $99k just for the mill. The 4th and 5th come in seperate box. Some assembly required. LOL
You have to find/make your own fixturing system and then assemble the pieces, then program software in CNC controler and CAM and calibrate it.
You have to set up the tool probe system of your choice (I choose Renishaw stuff),mount it somewhere in chamber, write the programs to check for broken tool and initial tool length measurement, etc...
Haas does not help to do any of this. You are alone to figure it out unless you know someone who has already done this to ask questions. (You now know of at least One person, me)
I do absolutly love my Haas. No regrets at all. It was very fun and educational (and stressful at times).
My employees run it now, and we have yet to crash it. Now we make $$ with it, just as I planned.
I am sure the DTS mill would have worked as well? (Maybe?) I do prefer the Industrial-style tool holding system as opposed to the single collet/drawbar and little tooth-pick tools which all have to have the exact same diameter shank. This kinda sucks because you are limited to only that size for choosing tools.
I can't find all the tools I want to use in One common shank size!
We use some standard (Imperial) 1/8" shank, and 3mm, 4mm, 6mm, etc. to make bars and abutments. I think this is almost impossible to do correctly without this tooling system?
It's just in a different class of mill.
For those of you not wanting to go as extreme as I did, then the versamill (DTS) may be a good choice as a turn-key solution, but I doubt you will make much $$ by milling pre-milled blanks. Don't count on that as main use of mill to get your money back out of a $100k mill. Not going to happen.
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brayks
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Hey ***,
Thanks for the info, I will chase it down with Al (guess I should already know this eh?)
I will apologize up front for this long post. I’ve been known to get a bit wordy (if that’s a word),and I hope what follows doesn’t appear to be marketing BS or too “salesy” (probably not a word either). I'm likely to keep the moderators on their toes (not intentionally of course).
I’ve heard this knock on Delcam before but I think it’s likely due to either a less than stellar supplier or a direct relationship with a local office.
We’ve been a Delcam Sales Partner for about 20 years distributing their “traditional” Advanced Manufacturing Solutions software products from which their Dental software products are derived. Our guys know this software inside and out and there’s nothing they can’t do with it. The PowerMILL CAM software is actually extremely powerful with many machining strategies that enable it to produce toolpath that is very efficient creating parts with great surfaces finishes while reducing tool wear. DentMILL utilizes some of these strategies and capabilities to do a great job with a customized interface that makes it easier for users without a lot of NC/CAM experience to use it. I think our advantage is that we know what’s going on and can tweak templates for our customers to get some very cool results.
I don’t know much about SUM3D but I gotta’ tell ya, I’d put it up against any CAM software anytime (and do with our non-dental related business). I’ve been around the block with CAD/CAM software (Prior to starting Axsys: 12 years with a large CAD/CAM/CIM software company as Application Engineer, Professional Services, Sales Rep, Sales Manager and Director of Product, Sales and Marketing) and this PowerMILL/DentMILL software is really very special for a host of reasons outside the scope here.
It’s funny you mention Haas. I understand why you love it. Years ago when we were looking for a milling machine to represent for our newly formed dental business I was seriously looking at just working a relationship with the local Haas Factory Outlet which we have been working closely with for more years than I care to count.
As a result of my previous experience in the machine tool business, I was pretty discouraged by the real lack of quality and reliability of the current machines (still am really)…..and the whole Closed System thing really upset me, what a crock (but I digress). There are no, what I call, “real machines”. So I started engineering a solution with a Haas Office Mill because it was priced well, could be serviced nationwide by local outlets, was reliable, etc.
The issue was as you mentioned, fixturing, dust removal, probing, tool changers, size, teaching users G-Code and set-up, etc. As I was going down this path, I came across the VersaMILL (long story) and DANG! This is a real machine; cast base (no fabrication or stone),linear ways, closed loop servo’s, high quality locally sourced high speed spindle (low run-out: < .0003),ball screws, anti-backlash nuts, dual coolant tanks for wet and dry machining, sensible mechanical tool changer, etc. etc…..and its reliable. It was a no brainer really. This was a machine I could represent.
The only thing I would really change would be to utilize standard tool holders (BT-30 or so would be cool) and standard tooling. Of course we would then have to deal with the cost and implementation pains of special tool holders to keep the run-out in check.
You really nailed it on the tooling and fixturing. Finding a source that could provide the depth of tooling we wanted to really provide a superior product and be able to handle all the materials and restoration types required proved to be quite shall we say challenging? We were however able to do so, and at prices that are a fraction of the cost of what I’ve seen being charged out there (almost sinful really). The VersaMILL uses 6mm tooling and we have a wide variety of HSS, Carbide, Coated Carbide, DLC and CVC cutter’s available (ball, bull, flat, tapered, drills, etc.)
ROI on an $100K investment is always a tough one to determine. What is it? What time frame would it take? What timeframe is acceptable? What is ramp up time? Training and operating costs? What is the effect this new capability on my revenue stream in terms of additional markets opened up and when would it be realized. What is the value of not dealing with the problems associated with outsourcing? Etc. etc.
We actually have customers making money doing only zirconia restorations. If it were me I’d be doing as much metal as I could; implants, bars, bridges, etc. and throw in some full contour zirconia stuff if and when there wasn’t any “metal business”. Our customers are finding a very nice ROI scenario under this approach.
Sorry for babbling on…..
Steve
BTW: How do I change my avatar? I thought myself to be reasonably intelligent, but for the life of me, I can't find it)
Thanks for the info, I will chase it down with Al (guess I should already know this eh?)
I will apologize up front for this long post. I’ve been known to get a bit wordy (if that’s a word),and I hope what follows doesn’t appear to be marketing BS or too “salesy” (probably not a word either). I'm likely to keep the moderators on their toes (not intentionally of course).
I’ve heard this knock on Delcam before but I think it’s likely due to either a less than stellar supplier or a direct relationship with a local office.
We’ve been a Delcam Sales Partner for about 20 years distributing their “traditional” Advanced Manufacturing Solutions software products from which their Dental software products are derived. Our guys know this software inside and out and there’s nothing they can’t do with it. The PowerMILL CAM software is actually extremely powerful with many machining strategies that enable it to produce toolpath that is very efficient creating parts with great surfaces finishes while reducing tool wear. DentMILL utilizes some of these strategies and capabilities to do a great job with a customized interface that makes it easier for users without a lot of NC/CAM experience to use it. I think our advantage is that we know what’s going on and can tweak templates for our customers to get some very cool results.
I don’t know much about SUM3D but I gotta’ tell ya, I’d put it up against any CAM software anytime (and do with our non-dental related business). I’ve been around the block with CAD/CAM software (Prior to starting Axsys: 12 years with a large CAD/CAM/CIM software company as Application Engineer, Professional Services, Sales Rep, Sales Manager and Director of Product, Sales and Marketing) and this PowerMILL/DentMILL software is really very special for a host of reasons outside the scope here.
It’s funny you mention Haas. I understand why you love it. Years ago when we were looking for a milling machine to represent for our newly formed dental business I was seriously looking at just working a relationship with the local Haas Factory Outlet which we have been working closely with for more years than I care to count.
As a result of my previous experience in the machine tool business, I was pretty discouraged by the real lack of quality and reliability of the current machines (still am really)…..and the whole Closed System thing really upset me, what a crock (but I digress). There are no, what I call, “real machines”. So I started engineering a solution with a Haas Office Mill because it was priced well, could be serviced nationwide by local outlets, was reliable, etc.
The issue was as you mentioned, fixturing, dust removal, probing, tool changers, size, teaching users G-Code and set-up, etc. As I was going down this path, I came across the VersaMILL (long story) and DANG! This is a real machine; cast base (no fabrication or stone),linear ways, closed loop servo’s, high quality locally sourced high speed spindle (low run-out: < .0003),ball screws, anti-backlash nuts, dual coolant tanks for wet and dry machining, sensible mechanical tool changer, etc. etc…..and its reliable. It was a no brainer really. This was a machine I could represent.
The only thing I would really change would be to utilize standard tool holders (BT-30 or so would be cool) and standard tooling. Of course we would then have to deal with the cost and implementation pains of special tool holders to keep the run-out in check.
You really nailed it on the tooling and fixturing. Finding a source that could provide the depth of tooling we wanted to really provide a superior product and be able to handle all the materials and restoration types required proved to be quite shall we say challenging? We were however able to do so, and at prices that are a fraction of the cost of what I’ve seen being charged out there (almost sinful really). The VersaMILL uses 6mm tooling and we have a wide variety of HSS, Carbide, Coated Carbide, DLC and CVC cutter’s available (ball, bull, flat, tapered, drills, etc.)
ROI on an $100K investment is always a tough one to determine. What is it? What time frame would it take? What timeframe is acceptable? What is ramp up time? Training and operating costs? What is the effect this new capability on my revenue stream in terms of additional markets opened up and when would it be realized. What is the value of not dealing with the problems associated with outsourcing? Etc. etc.
We actually have customers making money doing only zirconia restorations. If it were me I’d be doing as much metal as I could; implants, bars, bridges, etc. and throw in some full contour zirconia stuff if and when there wasn’t any “metal business”. Our customers are finding a very nice ROI scenario under this approach.
Sorry for babbling on…..
Steve
BTW: How do I change my avatar? I thought myself to be reasonably intelligent, but for the life of me, I can't find it)
P
primus
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How do you mill a bar with that thing? In a Disk of Ti?
You have the correct strategy for all types of interfaces?
Can I send you a file to mill for me? I need to see this for myself.....
Where did you find a twist-drill tool to drill the holes in a 6mm shank?
Needs to be around 1.5-1.7mm in diameter....
I could not find the Ones I needed.
How about long-reach 1mm flat end mill and torus in 1mm?
You found those as well? With 16mm+ reach to down into the screw-channel? (More than 10x reach of diameter)
This search drove me nucking-futz and I gave up trying to find all tools in One common shank size.
HAD to go Industial. No single collet spindle would work for me. The Tool-holder systems is certianly more accurate anyways. No change of debris getting stuffed into the collet, because we set them up at tool workstation away from the mill. You know exactly what I am talking about.
You have the correct strategy for all types of interfaces?
Can I send you a file to mill for me? I need to see this for myself.....
Where did you find a twist-drill tool to drill the holes in a 6mm shank?
Needs to be around 1.5-1.7mm in diameter....
I could not find the Ones I needed.
How about long-reach 1mm flat end mill and torus in 1mm?
You found those as well? With 16mm+ reach to down into the screw-channel? (More than 10x reach of diameter)
This search drove me nucking-futz and I gave up trying to find all tools in One common shank size.
HAD to go Industial. No single collet spindle would work for me. The Tool-holder systems is certianly more accurate anyways. No change of debris getting stuffed into the collet, because we set them up at tool workstation away from the mill. You know exactly what I am talking about.
brayks
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Hey Primus,
Yes in a Ti Disc. our fixture takes "standard" discs but the way our machine is set-up any type of fixture could be developed if one was inclined to engineer a better mouse trap.
We do have very nice strategies developed for the many interfaces we support.
We import much of our tooling but the milling tools we utilize do not have that type of flute length (we actually have not found a need). I recommend you check out Hitachi for these tools, their Ephoc Deep Evolution Series of tooling has some pretty aggressive configurations. You can peruse their various catalogs here: http://www.hitachi-tool.co.jp/j/products/endmill/index_e.html
Drills in this Series: http://www.hitachi-tool.co.jp/j/products/drill/index_e.html
We currently do not have a demonstration machine on the floor to machine a test part (good thing as it is sold) but we do have some other alternatives. Send me a PM and we can discuss it...
..... and yes, I do know what you are talking about.
Some images for fun:
Rotary Axis with Universal Fixture First Dental Bar Produced (Great Fit BTW)
Best
Steve
Yes in a Ti Disc. our fixture takes "standard" discs but the way our machine is set-up any type of fixture could be developed if one was inclined to engineer a better mouse trap.
We do have very nice strategies developed for the many interfaces we support.
We import much of our tooling but the milling tools we utilize do not have that type of flute length (we actually have not found a need). I recommend you check out Hitachi for these tools, their Ephoc Deep Evolution Series of tooling has some pretty aggressive configurations. You can peruse their various catalogs here: http://www.hitachi-tool.co.jp/j/products/endmill/index_e.html
Drills in this Series: http://www.hitachi-tool.co.jp/j/products/drill/index_e.html
We currently do not have a demonstration machine on the floor to machine a test part (good thing as it is sold
) but we do have some other alternatives. Send me a PM and we can discuss it........ and yes, I do know what you are talking about.
Some images for fun:
Rotary Axis with Universal Fixture First Dental Bar Produced (Great Fit BTW)
Best
Steve
