Boil Out Alternative

Dominick

Dominick

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Morning ladies and gentlemen ... does anyone have an alternative to using a bulky burnout furnace for full and partial construction?....besides injection....I perused the forums utilizing the search function and did not come across this topic previously discussed so I apologize if I missed it
 
JMN

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Morning ladies and gentlemen ... does anyone have an alternative to using a bulky burnout furnace for full and partial construction?....besides injection....I perused the forums utilizing the search function and did not come across this topic previously discussed so I apologize if I missed it
For boil out I put each flask in a roughly 2liter/64oz tupperware knockoff from the dollar tree. Fill with water and run for 10 minutes in the microwave if it's one flask at a time.

Test your times on this as my oven is pretty low power and if you overdo it the wax will totally dissolve in the water instead of becoming soft. Which is fine too, just that some people like it gone, some like to pull out loose wiggly pieces.

It takes about 4 minutes to boil 12oz of water for a reference.
 
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Inna-Hurry

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You guys are kidding, right? And you wonder why lab techs are considered "unskilled labor"....
 
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You guys are kidding, right? And you wonder why lab techs are considered "unskilled labor"....
You've never been unreasonable before. Off angle in another direction, sure, but that's normal here.

So, I invite you to explain to me why and how:

A flask in water heated by direct exitation of the molecular structure of the water using electromagnetic waves is inferior to:

A flask in water heated by gas combustion
or
A flask in water heated by electrical resistance.

How about induction ranges/'burners", are they permitted by the skilled techs for heating water?


I just don't want some new tech to come through and get the idea that if you heat water 'wrong', you're a bad tech.

It has no bearing on the outcome of a prosthetic or the patient treatment plan as far as beauty, longevity, function, speech abilities, material life, material purity, tissue health, bone care and any other real metric of success that has been printed in a respected journal, so what is the issue?

Edit:de grouchify
 
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keroassidy

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I have to agree with Inna-hurry. A denture flask can ONLY be boiled out in a 1,000$ speciality boil out unit. The special 1000$ unit raises the temp of the water in a super secret special way to facilitate the wax to break down and become soft. Any other way that raises the temp of water that is not done in an expensive ,specialty unit is a sign of unskilled labor. See I use a large 22 qt roaster from walmart that raises the temp of water to a degree that softens the wax allowing for easy removal. Having only spent under 100$ I clearly fall under the unskilled labourer. JMN once you realize that its not about fit or function but about how much your tools cost will you truly become a technician. Ps. Feel free to come to my house as i use harbor fright tools to build sheds, a dock, deck, and stack cords of wood in a unskilled manor.
 
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Inna-Hurry

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I guess it's kind of like "dress for success". If I believe I am manufacturing a prosthesis in a professional envionment I feel I should be compensated as "a professional" and not unskilled labor. Another example: The chef preparing a meal in the kitchen at a Wolfgang Puck establishment vs. Vinnie at the greasy spoon. These are very loose analogies but I think you get the idea. Mental employee perception should mean a lot (if it doesn't you have the wrong employee) ... all the way from pride in wardrobe, envionment, appliances, supplies etc.down to how the waiter (delvery driver) presents the meal (case). Not saying Vinnie's meal was worse- but when you look into the backstory on how it was made you see why it cost less.
I am all over here- not trying to knock anybody's production methods but boiling pots on a hotplate, turkey fryers and white PVC pipe wouldn't bring me much pride in my craftsmanship of an appliance going in a mouth. I do agree boiling water is boiling water..... Making tea- some use a microwave, some a Hot Shot, and some a teapot on the stove that whistles when the water is boiling. What would you want your tea made with?
 
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Inna-Hurry

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I have to agree with Inna-hurry. A denture flask can ONLY be boiled out in a 1,000$ speciality boil out unit. The special 1000$ unit raises the temp of the water in a super secret special way to facilitate the wax to break down and become soft. Any other way that raises the temp of water that is not done in an expensive ,specialty unit is a sign of unskilled labor. See I use a large 22 qt roaster from walmart that raises the temp of water to a degree that softens the wax allowing for easy removal. Having only spent under 100$ I clearly fall under the unskilled labourer. JMN once you realize that its not about fit or function but about how much your tools cost will you truly become a technician. Ps. Feel free to come to my house as i use harbor fright tools to build sheds, a dock, deck, and stack cords of wood in a unskilled manor.

keroassidy- your sarcasm made me grin and want to share a memory with y'all. Thank you for that.

When I first started college to be a lab tech I was "lucky" enough to work part time for a guy who had his lab in the back of his garage . He did not have any of the froo-froo equipment yet had a beautiful product. The tools do not necessarily make the product any better... But as I stood over a hot electric range with two canning pots boiling out flasks using a ladle I can still remember questioning myself... "Am I sure this is for me"?

Splitting two hot flasks and putting them under four faucets of running water to flush the wax vs. a ladle and canning pot over a stove... In a hurry and not let the water flow only from the hole in the bottom of the ladle-- instead just dumping the entire ladle over the flasks--and you had orange dentures that batch??? hmmmmm. (Have had it happen)

Pressing acrylic with a hand turning press or not even using one of those and squeezing them home with a big allen wrench and a screwdriver? Not a career solidifying moment. (Done that)

Pressing the acrylic in a big boy to "however I feel today and how many flasks do I have?" vs. a Coe or Nevin pneumatic press with a gauge for a consistent result? hmmmmm..... (When you got 6 to pack and it's almost time to leave for the day--- it's one mix wham bam and outta there grand slams that day)
...next morning we can fill the porosity white pimples and grind in the bites for 15 mins....


I am a believer in the "good stuff". The only equipment that comes to mind that I have bought new was my Wells Quick Chuck lathe. I spend a lot of time with it so I want it nice. Just sayin'.

Clients and staff are welcome in my lab anytime and I am good with having top shelf (the best I can afford)equipment. I invest in and update my equipment regularly.This works for me. Just my $.02.
I respect anybody that works and have even more respect for anybody that works HARD.
 
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keroassidy

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I use brass flask and hand crank press. In 25 yrs i have never had porosity to grind out or rediculoys open bites. I also press with a success injection system so don't think im some backwoods noob. I have my MDT. I also have eatin at pucks restaurants. He is a high end fast food chef. You would learn a thing from vinny cause hes a real day to day chef. I also run a 5 axis roland mil daily. As for using tea as a comparison to dental labs. Tea is made from hot water and loose tea. Steeped then drianed or bag is removed. Hardley a skilled process.
 
JMN

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I guess it's kind of like "dress for success". If I believe I am manufacturing a prosthesis in a professional envionment I feel I should be compensated as "a professional" and not unskilled labor.
The degree of skill, professionalism, and quality of outcome are not functions of the price of the equipment. As a skilled tech(no smartalkery) you know well that a room full of high end equipment doesn't mean a proper outcome.

Another example: The chef preparing a meal in the kitchen at a Wolfgang Puck establishment vs. Vinnie at the greasy spoon. These are very loose analogies but I think you get the idea.
I understand your intention, but disagree with your thesis.

Mental employee perception should mean a lot (if it doesn't you have the wrong employee) ... all the way from pride in wardrobe, environment, appliances, supplies etc.down to how the waiter (delivery driver) presents the meal (case). Not saying Vinnie's meal was worse- but when you look into the backstory on how it was made you see why it cost less.
Was it impossible for Vinnie to make the same meal? No. He also has a different market, which is outside the scope of your analogy and our discussion, but, Tom Z and I are not exactly competing for customers.
I am aware of a story about a fleet of city buses. When a bus needed preventative maintenance or fault repair, they used to wash them after the repairs, right before returning them to service. When they started washing them before the repairs, the buses had less need for maintenance. Perception is the acted upon reality. I totally agree. I do wear button down dress shirts and dress pants also for that reason. But, anyone who cannot set teeth properly without being in a gleaming glass and steel building full of the latest gadgets is also not someone I would hire. But I don't think you would either.
I am all over here- not trying to knock anybody's production methods but boiling pots on a hotplate, turkey fryers and white PVC pipe wouldn't bring me much pride in my craftsmanship of an appliance going in a mouth.
My primary problem was that you had, possibly inadvertently, categorized poorly the restorations made and the skill of those without fancy muckety muck equipment. Not everyone has a rich uncle, or $100,000 to open a lab.
I thank you for clearing that up.
I do take great pride in my work, and will never deliver something I wouldn't wear, give to my mom, etc. Pride of workmanship, continual development of knowledge and skill, and a desire to always improve are a function of the person, not the equipment.
I do agree boiling water is boiling water.....
Cool!
Making tea- some use a microwave, some a Hot Shot, and some a teapot on the stove that whistles when the water is boiling. What would you want your tea made with?
Not being a subject of Queen Elizabeth II, I doubt I'd notice the difference after it went in the pot and under the tea cozy.

Seriously, thanks. Wasn't trying to start a war, just couldn't understand why my, and others, restorations were being looked poorly upon for using a microwave.
 
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JMN

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keroassidy- your sarcasm made me grin and want to share a memory with y'all. Thank you for that.

When I first started college to be a lab tech I was "lucky" enough to work part time for a guy who had his lab in the back of his garage . He did not have any of the froo-froo equipment yet had a beautiful product. The tools do not necessarily make the product any better... But as I stood over a hot electric range with two canning pots boiling out flasks using a ladle I can still remember questioning myself... "Am I sure this is for me"?

Splitting two hot flasks and putting them under four faucets of running water to flush the wax vs. a ladle and canning pot over a stove... In a hurry and not let the water flow only from the hole in the bottom of the ladle-- instead just dumping the entire ladle over the flasks--and you had orange dentures that batch??? hmmmmm. (Have had it happen)

Pressing acrylic with a hand turning press or not even using one of those and squeezing them home with a big allen wrench and a screwdriver? Not a career solidifying moment. (Done that)

Pressing the acrylic in a big boy to "however I feel today and how many flasks do I have?" vs. a Coe or Nevin pneumatic press with a gauge for a consistent result? hmmmmm..... (When you got 6 to pack and it's almost time to leave for the day--- it's one mix wham bam and outta there grand slams that day)
...next morning we can fill the porosity white pimples and grind in the bites for 15 mins....


I am a believer in the "good stuff". The only equipment that comes to mind that I have bought new was my Wells Quick Chuck lathe. I spend a lot of time with it so I want it nice. Just sayin'.

Clients and staff are welcome in my lab anytime and I am good with having top shelf (the best I can afford)equipment. I invest in and update my equipment regularly.This works for me. Just my $.02.
I respect anybody that works and have even more respect for anybody that works HARD.
I started in a lab that had most of the nice niftyness. But I was also taught that I had to earn the privilege of using them. Just like you don't give a Ferrari to a new driver. Respect for the technique, the process, the patient, and the materials first. Then you get to use the things that make things faster when you can handle them.

I am buying new things, and updated things, fast as the budget allows. But only what I need to increase options, until I have all the options I want to offer. The docs that have come over have all been supportive and appreciative of my use of space and equipment. One even sat down with me to discuss a case and asked how I managed to do what I do without all the $$$ toys. So I ran him through the equipment choices. He was impressed because every thing in here that is not Dental specialty is Restaurant specialty equipment. And all of it safe.

Have a great weekend!
 
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JMN

JMN

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I have to agree with Inna-hurry. A denture flask can ONLY be boiled out in a 1,000$ speciality boil out unit. The special 1000$ unit raises the temp of the water in a super secret special way to facilitate the wax to break down and become soft. Any other way that raises the temp of water that is not done in an expensive ,specialty unit is a sign of unskilled labor. See I use a large 22 qt roaster from walmart that raises the temp of water to a degree that softens the wax allowing for easy removal. Having only spent under 100$ I clearly fall under the unskilled labourer. JMN once you realize that its not about fit or function but about how much your tools cost will you truly become a technician. Ps. Feel free to come to my house as i use harbor fright tools to build sheds, a dock, deck, and stack cords of wood in a unskilled manor.
In PA?! I am so coming up one weekend! I'd love to see your unskill saw.
 
JMN

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@Inna-Hurry it is important to me that you understand I was not attacking you personally, but wanted to discuss that assertion.
 
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Inna-Hurry

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@Inna-Hurry it is important to me that you understand I was not attacking you personally, but wanted to discuss that assertion.

Nor I you!
JMN- my post was a generalization of the past comments I have read by many members regarding a lot of procedures... (Or kerroassidy either for that matter though he was understandably a bit snarky).

I will compare your bus wash to a mounting....
When you see your nice, shiny bus from across the lot you might assume the repairs were completed properly without opening up the bonnet to check all fasteners had been replaced,etc.
When you see a nicely mounted case, you might assume all the teeth touch and are aligned properly- not covered in wax.

Personally- I DO have oversights- I DO have a tooth not placed perfectly or without contact.... If they are happy with initial presentation they may never check.



I would never say a restoration is lesser because of the equipment involved to manufacture it. If I conveyed that- I apologize. I was simply saying good equipment helps with consistency and save you time with no (or less...lol) breakdowns. I spoke with maaaany technicians when I was involved in sales and I most always talked about how they did stuff. What I am reading here is sop.

I feel this conversation has a great purpose on this forum. Everybody that reads it may get something different from it- bottom line is debate is good, healthy and encouraged. Us little guys have to the most with less.

Bottom line here: Time is money. Less time at the bench=more time to cultivate more money.

Thaks for the debate!
 
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JMN

JMN

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Nor I you!
JMN- my post was a generalization of the past comments I have read by many members regarding a lot of procedures... (Or kerroassidy either for that matter though he was understandably a bit snarky).

I will compare your bus wash to a mounting....
When you see your nice, shiny bus from across the lot you might assume the repairs were completed properly without opening up the bonnet to check all fasteners had been replaced,etc.
When you see a nicely mounted case, you might assume all the teeth touch and are aligned properly- not covered in wax.

Personally- I DO have oversights- I DO have a tooth not placed perfectly or without contact.... If they are happy with initial presentation they may never check.



I would never say a restoration is lesser because of the equipment involved to manufacture it. If I conveyed that- I apologize. I was simply saying good equipment helps with consistency and save you time with no (or less...lol) breakdowns. I spoke with maaaany technicians when I was involved in sales and I most always talked about how they did stuff. What I am reading here is sop.

I feel this conversation has a great purpose on this forum. Everybody that reads it may get something different from it- bottom line is debate is good, healthy and encouraged. Us little guys have to the most with less.

Bottom line here: Time is money. Less time at the bench=more time to cultivate more money.

Thaks for the debate!
Yep, when I deliver, the bagtop is folded over square, invoice centered and straight, staple perfectly horizontal as possible to start off with pushing the idea 'this is correct, this is right' because I don't care who you are if someone looks at a case long enough something will be found that needed improvment.

;That's how we get better, by continually fixing the lowest hanging fruit and after awhile even the lowest fruit is reasonably high. But it's still fruit.

Doing the most with less, ah yes.

Keep chasing the fruit.
 
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Inna-Hurry

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I use brass flask and hand crank press. In 25 yrs i have never had porosity to grind out or rediculoys open bites. I also press with a success injection system so don't think im some backwoods noob. I have my MDT. I also have eatin at pucks restaurants. He is a high end fast food chef. You would learn a thing from vinny cause hes a real day to day chef. I also run a 5 axis roland mil daily. As for using tea as a comparison to dental labs. Tea is made from hot water and loose tea. Steeped then drianed or bag is removed. Hardley a skilled process.


keroassidy says... "In 25 years i have never had porosity to grind out or rediculoys open bites". . I believe you.

I aspire to be as great a technician as you one day.... If this were a competition I would bow down to you. You sure do have the whole package going on.

If you're looking for a fight you're not going to find it here.
Enjoy what you do... Life's too short.
 
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kcdt

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I guess it's kind of like "dress for success". If I believe I am manufacturing a prosthesis in a professional envionment I feel I should be compensated as "a professional" and not unskilled labor. Another example: The chef preparing a meal in the kitchen at a Wolfgang Puck establishment vs. Vinnie at the greasy spoon. These are very loose analogies but I think you get the idea. Mental employee perception should mean a lot (if it doesn't you have the wrong employee) ... all the way from pride in wardrobe, envionment, appliances, supplies etc.down to how the waiter (delvery driver) presents the meal (case). Not saying Vinnie's meal was worse- but when you look into the backstory on how it was made you see why it cost less.
I am all over here- not trying to knock anybody's production methods but boiling pots on a hotplate, turkey fryers and white PVC pipe wouldn't bring me much pride in my craftsmanship of an appliance going in a mouth. I do agree boiling water is boiling water..... Making tea- some use a microwave, some a Hot Shot, and some a teapot on the stove that whistles when the water is boiling. What would you want your tea made with?
I've seen ****ty crap come out of Kavo equipped spaces.
Book and it's cover and all that.

On the other hand I've seen a good technician spend time serving the underserved with little more than turkey roasters and flasks.

I guess some people just have the skill to roll with it.

See how elitist that sounds?
 
Flipperlady

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Maybe I'm mistaken , but I thought the original post was about burnout for metal frameworks. My answer if that is the case, although unskilled and tongue in cheek, is valid. If the equipment cost and bulky burnout furnaces are an issue, find a good lab to do them for you. That is not an unskilled answer. However, do go out and make sure to buy the most expensive equipment possible, I guarantee while it will make you feel better it won't make you a more accomplished technician.
 
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