2 types of Herbst

[labdude]

Soldering of tubes and then soldering ball clasps to those tubes can be difficult.
Use minimal flux and anti flux. Antiflux in tube and cut. this end is soldered to work just in front of Herbst anchor. Then cut, flux a small amount on tube piece, flux the ball clasp. Small amount of solder placed on tube, then attach ball clasp. I do this as it is less expensive than buying a tube with a ball attached, those goodies run about 4 or 5 dollars a piece.
Large lingual bar is used for buccal arm.
Questions??? ask.

 

[labdude]

more herbst

pics only

 

[TheLabGuy]

Mike, you're such a ortho stud, I love the pictures, keep up the hard work brother, I learn something everyday from you wire benders......lol

 

[labdude]

Something I should add.
Alignment of the attachments needs to be done using the tube and rod parts. If these parts don't align when tack welded, re align them.
Also, the tube and arm can be reamed out a little larger for lateral movement. Usually a good idea for every case. After all is alinged and soldered, cut the tbes to prpoer length, leave rods about 10 mm outside of tube if possible. Dr can shorten if needed. These rods if made to short will make it possible for the patient to open wide enough to make them fall apart.
Had one kid open not quite enough, then bend the rod. It got locked in the tube part and held his mouth open and jaw way out till he got to the office for some help.
From what I've heard over the years, these herbst are used in a patient who may not cooperate and use a removable like a Bionator or Twin Block.
All soldering is done with oxy acet, 56% solder. Tubing is a tricky bugger to solder and not have it fill up with solder.

 

[RetainerDesigner]

I have made one of these before, they dont seem to popular with the Orthos I work for. Hence the many Twin Blocks I make. But the patient I made the herbst for was not compliant with his Twin Blocks. I think it was mothers request too, she knew her son would never wear something removable.

I had an "Oh, Yeah" moment when I saw your pictures. Solder the tube on -> then cut to desired length. Not Cut to length then try to fiddle with a small little piece of tube! Especially when you dont have a tack welder!
Good Job Labdude
One nugget retrieved for cade

 

[labdude]

Update on the Herbst.
I find now all of the units I make are telescopic. Shorter the better as far as tube length. Drs like to bracket the 5s.
I just found out about a new type of telescopic that Specialty is using. I will try to order some form them if they are available to labs from Specialty. They are very short, attach to upper 6 and lower 6.

 

[trisha]

You are such a stud labdude ~teehee
The dr.s in my area don't use herbsts or frankels or any of those really tough appliances. Thank goodness!!!

Did a few IPC style appliances and found out about trimming the tube after soldering not prior. You make that mistake once.

trisha

 

[orthodent]

Update on the Herbst.
I find now all of the units I make are telescopic. Shorter the better as far as tube length. Drs like to bracket the 5s.
I just found out about a new type of telescopic that Specialty is using. I will try to order some form them if they are available to labs from Specialty. They are very short, attach to upper 6 and lower 6.

I know that's the pic of the Ormco m2m advansync mini herbst. They are very expensive and are only exclusive to doctors. I am experimenting with some smaller sizes of the hanks herbst by American. They have hardware that is 16mm in length that telescopes which is a comprable size to the mini herbst. I wonder if the patients have issues opening wide, which I would not think since the further back the hardware the less opening. It would be nice to stay competitive with his new herbst design.

 

[labdude]

Hi orthodent,
Where are you located??
I have been using the 16 and 18 mm telescopic, they like those the best.
About the m2m, what I've heard is, they allow the doctor to place brackets on the 5s. And the requirement of doing other added adjustments elsewhere, that really negate the value of that design. Especially with the added cost for it.
As for opening with the 16 mm, not a problem, the telescopic parts are sufficent. And the telescopic parts of the m2m open plenty far enough as well. Problem is the extra cost for the m2m.
I'm not even sure I could buy them to make a Herbst, like you said, Dr. exclusive.
Just like the other Herbst parts, they can be hard to get sometimes.
Mike.

 

[orthodent]

Hi mike, we are buffalo ny. How do you distinguish which one to go with, the 16 or the 18 since they are so close in size? Where are you placing the pivot on the upper crown, can I assume you put it more distal to keep things a little more posterior? I have not heard great things about the m2m, but I guess we'll see.

 

[labdude]

The preference has been dictated by the Drs.
They like the 16 cause' it's smaller, only slightly however.
I place the nut at the center of the upper crown, angled off the crown to match the angle of the buccal segement.
The SS crowns have a crease in them that indicates the center of the molar. Maybe one of the guys that is good at nomencalture (poreclain guy) can give us the technical name of that part of the upper first molar.
Anyhow, I use a gauge to measure 18mm or 16mm (depends on which size herbst I use) from that point on the upper, and mark on the lower where the center of the nut on the cantalever needs to be.
Using these points of reference, you can construct the entire Herbst, tack welded, then solder to finish.
Make sure if you use a measureing devise, that you are not going straight forward from the upper 6, but at an angle from it, to where the lower nut will be. Without that done on the angle, the Herbst will be to short.
Mike.