Which sinter furnace? Infire HTC or Nabertherm...

[Ceradent.se]

I would like to get some input regarding sinter furnaces. I have got an offer for a used Sirona Infire HTC bought 2009 or something, moderately used by previous owner. He wants about 8000USD for it. The alternative is a new Nabertherm HTCT 01/16 for about 7000USD.

I´m not sure what the best option is since they have different heating elements and temperature ranges.

Has anyone tried eitherone of them? And if so what do you think regarding this matter.

Sincerely,
Jonas
CEO, Ceradent AB
SWEDEN

 

[STJDENT]

Go for Mihm-vogt. There are several vendors in Sweden.
Email me if you need help.
[email protected]

 

[Alex R.]

Hi Jonas, you better choose Mihm-vogt, it has MoSi heating elements and higher final temperature. I have both furnaces and Naberterm 01/16 works good only for frameworks not translucent ZiO2, also you have to remove bubbles from Nab. heating elements if you are staining your zirconia.

 

[Ceradent.se]

Great, thanks for the input I´ll look that up tomorrow.
I thought that the Nabertherm was working with both Translucent Zr and stained ones. I´m also looking at the new clolour from Zirkonzahn and it would not be good if the furnace didn´t work with that...
Why wouldn´t it work with Translucent?

 

[Alex R.]

It will work but the depth of translucent Zr won't be enough because Nabertherm hardly gives 1550 C and baking on 1550 will kill heating elements soon. You need 1600C for good translucency.

 

[charles007]

There's a lot of sad stories of lab using name brand ovens and cheap ovens. Why not spend a little more and get a new Mihm Vogt or Shenpaz Sintra that has a warranty and no worries about elements and bad sintering.

 

[Ceradent.se]

I looked at my Zenostar Tranclucent material specs and saw that it should be sintered at 1450 degrees. Do you mean that you sinter white Zr higher than you should and then get the translucency that way? And if so don´t you risk getting a material with different structure than it should be?

The reason I am looking at the cheaper alternatives is that we are a two man lab and our Zr production just isn´t that big, they are about 100% more in cost... Maybee also 100% better? I really don´t know.
I have heard good things about the Mihm Vogt and have it as a contender in choice. It seems that everyone is recommending MoSi heating elements and I´m starting to lean more and more to that.

The used Infire I´m talking about is sold by an old partner of ours and I know that it´s not used that much at all, it relly looks like the Mihm Vogt. Are they made by the same company perhaps?

 

[Alex R.]

don´t you risk getting a material with different structure than it should be?

yes, it's weaker a little

 

[Drizzt]

I looked at my Zenostar Tranclucent material specs and saw that it should be sintered at 1450 degrees. Do you mean that you sinter white Zr higher than you should and then get the translucency that way? And if so don´t you risk getting a material with different structure than it should be?

The reason I am looking at the cheaper alternatives is that we are a two man lab and our Zr production just isn´t that big, they are about 100% more in cost... Maybee also 100% better? I really don´t know.
I have heard good things about the Mihm Vogt and have it as a contender in choice. It seems that everyone is recommending MoSi heating elements and I´m starting to lean more and more to that.

The used Infire I´m talking about is sold by an old partner of ours and I know that it´s not used that much at all, it relly looks like the Mihm Vogt. Are they made by the same company perhaps?

Jonas , the Infire IS Mihm Vogt . Look at Nabertherm LHT 02/17 LB Speed

http://www.nabertherm.com/produkte/details/en/dental_sintern-von-zirkonoxid

The price for it , is 7.600 euros , brand new . Great price for what it can do IMO . You will have no problem at all with any zirconia . I am firing my translucent zirconia at 1450 , as the manufacturer instructs me to do so . The translucensy is just fine . Stick to the instructions if you ask me . A broken FCZ , is broken , period . Nobody will remember if it was more translucent .

I bought a used Ivoclar Programat S1 , 5 k euros cheaper than a new one , 76 working hours when I bought it , but if I was buying now , I would buy the Nabertherm LHT 02/17 LB Speed .

Good luck .

 

[Ceradent.se]

Thanks again for your time and input. I´ll put on my thinking hat and try to decide!

 

[STJDENT]

Här kan du kolla detaljerna.
http://www.mihm-vogt.de/vhtml_en/high-temperature-furnaces/ht_liste.php?navid=3
Jag är ingen återförsäljare som sagt.
Normedentia i malmö säljer såna samt detalexport från estland har en svensk i sverige som säljer såna också.
Kontakta de för prisuppgifter om intressant.
Hoppas du fått lite hjälp på traven
Lycka till!

 

[BobCDT]

I would never use a front entry sintering furnace. I don't think you will be disappointed with either the mihm vogt or the sintra. However, I would not recommend the small mihm vogt as the muffle height is very short. As a result, you can not stand up a bridge on a sintering in this furnace.

 

[Cbite Dental Products]

I just got a promotional e-mail from Whipmix about a sintering furnace , can this be another option? It is front entry, so Bob you may not like it...but what do the rest of you think?

We've worked long and hard and now feel confident to introduce you to the Infinity ZR; the first Whip Mix Sintering Furnace. Silicon Carbide heating rods are used to assure proper and complete zirconia sintering. Below are some additonal features:

* Working temperature: 1550°C (2822°F)
* 30 working user-defined programs
* Thermal Web Technology reflects infrared heat for more even heating
* Start delay time of up to 8 hours
* Stack up to 3 trays (avg. of 60 unit at a time)
* Number of stages: 1-4
* UL/CUL and CE certified
* 2 year warranty / 1 year warranty on muffle, thermocouple, heating elements
Each furnace comes standard with 1 lidded sintering tray, 1 8oz. jar of sintering beads and 1 spatula

Just a thought.

 

[zero_zero]

I don't think that everything's wrong with a frontloader...maybe more thermal stress to the elements if the user opens it too soon ? Dunno...

 

[Tayebdental]

What about the dekema front entry sintering furnace?, it has a very good reviews.!!

 

[charles007]

What about the dekema front entry sintering furnace?, it has a very good reviews.!!

Check out the price of the dekema, and capacity of units, then tell me you wouldn't buy the Sentra.....
Hands down the Sentra is a better buy...

 

[DMC]

There's a lot of sad stories of lab using name brand ovens and cheap ovens. Why not spend a little more and get a new Mihm Vogt or Shenpaz Sintra that has a warranty and no worries about elements and bad sintering.

Bull-crap Charles. Who/what are you talking about?

Spending a "little more".?? Mine is $3000. How much is "a little" to you?

$5000? $7000? more??

All mine have warranty and MoSi2 elements....even come with Four extra elements.

I sold now Thirty "Cheap" furnaces and not One complaint from any of my customers.

I have been using them since 2007. Same company that Glidwell hiried to make the Bruxzir furnace, except mine are 1/2 the cost. Glidwell just marks them up to the moon.

Jason on here seemed to blow up his, but he did not buy it from me and probably could have used some professional help setting it up. Is that what you are talking about? One person who tried to set up his own furnace?

It is not just the program that needs setting, but many other parameters behind the scene to adjust output in a couple zones, and other things.

Nabertherm has furnaces as well that work great. They all are not the spiral Quartz style. Many Nabertherm use MoSi2 from Kanthal and the Kanthal Super 1900 elements are amazing.

Even Bob at CAP agrees.

You do NOT need to hit 1600C to get good looking Zr. That too is B.S.
If we took a poll, I bet 99% of you only go up to 1530C or so....I tried goin much higher and the trans. only got worse!

Anyways, my furnace goes to 1700C ! LOL

You guys are funny!

 

[BobCDT]

Hi guys, CAP and WM are friends. Personally I really like the company and all the folks that run it. Honestly I can't say nor do I think anything bad about them. I am not familiar with this furnace. However, the problem with front entry is uneven heat distribution. But, if the manufacturer put heating element in the door I would be more inclined to think the heat distribution has the potential for more even heat. WM may have done this in the design of the furnace. I don't know. This variation of heat in the chamber can be significant depending on the insulation and heating of the door. A front entry door with no heating element will likely have cold spots. Interestingly, the exterior of the chamber of the Mihm Vogt sintering furnace is cool to touch when the furnace is at peak temp. The heating elements (6) are evenly distributed in a round chamber for even heating through the entire chamber. Some of you may disagree, but, I believe 20-40 degrees variation in sintering cycle makes a difference. Here are what I consider MUST haves when looking at sintering furnaces.
1. Round muffle chamber. (Not square)
2. Bottom entry
3. Easily programmable and simple user interface (25 programs minimum)
4. MoSi2 heating elements
5. Cool exterior when program is at peak temp. (Not mandatory, save on power and likely provides more even heating)
6. Fast fire cycle capability.
For the most part to get all of this this in a sintering furnace your probably looking at $10K or more.

 

[primus]

Never had an issue with rectangular furnaces, like the $12,000 Lava-Therm made by Nabertherm.

Even with that silly 1" chimney and poor sealing at the door. I know you used them for years Bob.

Didn't know you were having issues this whole time. I didn't...?

Who is complaining about that may I ask? It worked just fine.

I have eliminated the gaping hole at the top in our design, and we have excellent door sealing.

Also comes with optional "brick" to stuff into the chamber if you really are paranoid about cool drafts, but we don't even use that.

It is a much better desing than the original Lava-Therm, and both work great.

??

We use One good cycle. Why would anyone possible need 25 cycles?? That's lunacy rit'der.

Who has time to bake 25 different cycles each day to get their work sintered? Or even Three for that matter?

You bake each piece One-by-One or something??

We raise the work with spacers right next to the thermocouple. Right in the middle of the chamber.

We had the thermocouple moved from the ceiling to the middle of the chamber also.

Works just fine. ??

 

[BobCDT]

Hey Scott,
Never fired full contour in the Lava Therm. Never would! Esthetics and thus firing accuracy is far more important in FZ than a framework. Even 3M changed over to bottom entry when they moved to the Dekema. If the old Term was sufficient why change?
We use multiple firing cycles for different applications and materials. You want to use square chambers that's up to you. I'm just adding info as I see it for someone interested in purchasing a new furnace.
Scott, I know nothing about your furnace. Nor did I know you sell one. And yes, it's possibly a great furnace. But, with the current state of furnace technology why would one purchase a furnace that has this available "Also comes with optional "brick" to stuff into the chamber". Doesn't this support my point about front vs. bottom entry?
To add multiple firing cycles to a furnace adds beans to the cost of manufacturing. I have only owned one furnace that had 1 program, Lava Therm. It sucked that I could not fire anything but lava in it. Couldn't even fire Lava plus in it. Then 3M offered a pricey upgrade to add a few more programs. Today, why limit yourself if the cost of additional versatility is low.