PRIMACON CNC of Germany

[DMC]

Anyone on the planet have experience with the newer generations of Primacon mills?

You may not know, but they made all the 3M Lava mills for the past Decade+.

I think they have the best track record for cranking out teeth 24/7.

All of the hundreds and hundreds of mills are still running STRONG and very few for sale.

I have serviced my own mills as much as possible, and am still impressed with the quality of the mills, even the 10 year old units are bad-a55 in my eyes.

So, I have been looking at Primacon for my next fixe-axis wet-mill. OK, it is almost 2x what a Hass or Yenedent would cost, but I think it is more than 2x better equip. So in the end, I come out ahead. I don't fully understand the popularity of cheap Micky-Mouse mills in the Dental Industry. You guys may regret the decision to save a few bucks on the initial price of mill, in exchange for short life span of machine and lack of accuracy and speed during owership. Then add in down-time for service, which will be way more frequent than a higher quality mill.... That will suck if you only have One mill. Trust me. That's why I bought a Second, then a Third, then a Fourth...

I have had less than a couple days of down time for all my mills put together over the past Six years. That is Super important too me.


I think this mill is more like a DMG or Roeders, but on a smaller scale that makes more sense for the little parts we make.
It is specifically designed for all things Dental. No junk parts anywhere on mill. All the highest quality

I only wish the mill looked better. Maybe I will have mine painted a different color?

http://www.primacon.com/index.php?id=287&L=1

With the addition of the Regofix tool holders, the mill has a REAL LIFE 1um accuracy according to VDI/DGQ 3441.
No B.S.

Anyone seen this mill in person?

 

[Drizzt]

It looks super cool !!! Are you going to mill everything including CoCr or just zirconium with it ? I think I have seen it at the previous IDS , but I am not sure . Do you think it is better compared to imes icore 750 i ? It costs twice the $$$$$ ! Does this huge price difference worth it ?

 

[DMC]

All Lava mills everywhere are from Primacon.

Just try to find One unhappy owner of that mill.

They are absolutly top notch. Anyone else care to throw in .02?

It will be for Metal, and the rare Zirconia that needs 5-axis.

I can't afford to loose/gain 10um on fit of big bars. I need accuracy, speed, and longevity.

Maybe Primacon would cut you a deal on the Helios 500 (Lava CNC 500),but it is dry mill only.

 

[Drizzt]

I have already contacted them for their machines , but too expensive for me . I can't afford either of them . I would be nice to have one of them , but to be honest it wouldn't be good business . Helios 500 is 120.000 euros without CAM . I am just a little lab compared to you guys , I would never had that money back . So I am having an improved custom made yenadent D 40 . I didn't want a Roland or another little machine . I believe a made the right choice . I will have it in 6 weeks , I am pretty excited , it is our first mill !

 

[DMC]

From Primacon web-site about Dental mill......


"Computer Numerical Control

The iTNC 530 by Heidenhain in its highest performing version is used as machine control. Screen, keypad and machine control panel are arranged in an ergonomic desk form. Peripherals are preferably controlled by Profibus.


Machine Cooling

The heat that accumulates on various points of the machines is discharged by a coolant. Servomotors, spindle and control cabinet are cooled to prevent accuracy losses or overheating. The cooling agent is cooled to the required value in a compressor cooler located outside of the machine."


Cooled axis motors and spindle and sealed control cabinet that is cooled with heat exchanger. No air exchange inside computer cabinet. Hard Disk stays cool and clean as well as all other control boards and parts. You get what you pay for! If you could look inside both mills, you would see the difference. Even if you have no clue what you are looking at.

Very over-built with artistic wiring and routing of all lines and cables, easy to work on with many access panels and much thought into the design. It looks very well build on the inside.

 

[Drizzt]

I know , I have already read it . Heidenhain rules . And the whole cooling thing is really nice . Wish I could spend 120.000 euros for a machine !!
It would be either that or icore 750i!

 

[DMC]

Yenedent had much weaker frame, and ball-screw had unsupported ends, and bearing blocks are sealed with no means to lube.

Dust is not controlled as well behind the chamber and in the computer cabinet.

Primacon has Central Lube system and is built to run for 25 years, not 10 years. Sealed computer and many many other upgrades that are eventually worth it.

Maybe hard to see at first, but in the end..... I had Spindle run for Eight Years straight.....it still ran but I just felt like doing something to the mill? LOL

I'm sure you are buying a quality mill, and much better than any table-top. I'm excited for ya!

The Yenedent models have improved over the years and maybe they now have lube-system? (Maybe?)

Maybe they have better support on the screws ends for movement (ball-screw units)

 

[Drizzt]

''Linear guides and no backlash ballscrews'' . I don't know if you ment that .
This is from their catalogue . By saying lube you mean lubrication ? I don't know about that . I am so excited ! the worst thing is I will have to wait two months ! I wish I had it next week ! But there are still many things to do (compressor , suction unit , sintering furnace) that the two months waiting time will be welcomed if I want to be totally ready when the machine arrives . Any suggestions on suction units ? They have two ptions .

Nilfisk IVB5 (Single-phase wet & dry vacs - IVB 5 WET - Quick overview - Nilfisk-CFM) .

The other is ULT (range ULT 300-Ihrem Partner für Lufttechnik, Absauganlagen und Luftfiltersysteme) .

Any other ? Are the suction units supposed to be so expensive , or they are just ripping us off ?

 

[Drizzt]

''Linear guides and no backlash ballscrews'' . I don't know if you ment that .
This is from their catalogue . By saying lube you mean lubrication ? I don't know about that . I am so excited ! the worst thing is I will have to wait two months ! I wish I had it next week ! But there are still many things to do (compressor , suction unit , sintering furnace) that the two months waiting time will be welcomed if I want to be totally ready when the machine arrives . Any suggestions on suction units ? They have two ptions .

Nilfisk IVB5 (Single-phase wet & dry vacs - IVB 5 WET - Quick overview - Nilfisk-CFM) .

The other is ULT (range ULT 300-Ihrem Partner für Lufttechnik, Absauganlagen und Luftfiltersysteme) .

Any other ? Are the suction units supposed to be so expensive , or they are just ripping us off ?

 

[Drizzt]

Ok , I posted the same thing twice !

 

[DMC]

I just spoke with Primacon.

It seems all 3M Lava Milling Centers in Germany have bought the new PFM24 from Primacon.

This is what 3M should have done, but dropped the ball.

I will continue where 3M left off, and keep the ball rolling forward, just like the Europeans/Germans are doing now.

REGO-FIX - powRgrip This is the tool-holder from Switzerland...best on planet for run-out and concentricity.

 

[Drizzt]

You should do that . Since you have already owned these type of mills and you are extremely happy with them for a long time now , why not try their new stuff ? I think that it would be the right choice for you !

 

[DMC]

No scope for tolerance with micro milling | meditec International - the specialty magazine for medicine technology

No scope for tolerance with micro milling

There is no scope for tolerance with micro milling. Poor results or expensive waste are taboo. It is therefore all the more important that experts such as in dental laboratories, the watch and jewelry industry, medical technology and in tool and mold construction can rely on their working tools.
NC-controlled micro precision milling machines from the Peißenberg-based company Primacon are therefore often the first choice. The manufacturer of high-precision milling machines relies on powRgrip for tool clamping. This stiff tool clamping system from Swiss manufacturer Rego-Fix AG ensures a stable cut and extremely precise results

“We’d had enough! We kept having to realign and readjust during production. The tool clamping system in use not only had application problems but also failed to deliver the quality to meet our own and our customers’ requirements,” remembers Muhammer Kör from Sales at Primacon. He now looks back relaxed. The global company founded in 1995 is a leading manufacturer of top-precision CNC-controlled micro milling machines and compact machining centers for small parts with precision requirements of 0.001 mm. To solve the problem Primacon called on REGO-FIX from Tenniken as specialists in tool clamping systems. Today the procedure for Primacon users is simply “Cut, apply, enter nominal diameter, measure length and radius in the laser, start programming – manufacture parts.”

Since the powRgrip® tool clamping system of the Swiss manufacturer Rego-Fixhas been implemented the user has been able to rely with confidence on correct precision – irrespective of whether they are dealing with titanium, cobalt alloys, carbon or carbon fiber materials.

Clear benefits in processing
The success story of powRgrip in micro milling and in particular for Primacon is a result of a number of different reasons: Michael Reichmann, application technician at Primacon, explains: “We switched to the powRgrip system because we saw clear benefits in processing: the stiffness of the tool holders provided an enormous advantage in terms of precise processing for the manufacture of top surface quality. The behavior of vibrations with the powRgrip tool holder system is much better than before and leads to first class end results. By way of comparison the operator notices immediately that the machine runs more quietly and stably.”

This is the case in dental laboratories producing individual dentures. The runout and fit quality are the decisive factors here for the quality of dentures that can be manufactured. For example, the fit quality underneath must be high for cutting the dentures to size. To achieve this it requires not only excellent concentricity, but also all vibration-free cutting during dynamic loading. The Swiss tool clamping systmen is able to absorb these strains. As virtually no more fitting difficulties now occur this prevents faulty ceramic bridges from being manufactured and having to be rejected and scrapped. The toolholding system already has paid off after a short period through the material cost savings.

The system with its excellent concentricity also offers Primacon customers a further advantage in the manufacture of watch plates. For each watch plate the manufacturer expects 30 to 50 tool changes. The spindle force is adjusted for each stage of the work. This calls for both a stable and precise machine and a stable clamping system with secure concentricity.

The key advantages that customers expect are of course productivity and quality. Michael Reichmann: “If I am only able to use one out of three blade edges then this is anything but productive. Our standard machines are supplied with a spindle of 50,000 rpm. Balancing has never been an issue for us due to the very well balanced powRgrip tool holders produced by Rego-Fix. In the micro milling area the Swiss system is said to be the optimum tool clamping system with the collet size PG10 that covers a clamping diameter of 0.2 to 6.350 mm (1/4″). The user does not require any pre-adapter for clamping and does not need to worry about different clamping forces of the respective clamping diameters. powRgrip is both extremely flexible and quick. Michael Reichmann: “For our applications the system is massively superior to shrinkage in the area of interfacing contours in terms of stability and damping behaviour. These benefits are clearly noticeable during simultaneous milling.”

 

[DMC]

 

[ice_pascu]

I have already contacted them for their machines , but too expensive for me . I can't afford either of them . I would be nice to have one of them , but to be honest it wouldn't be good business . Helios 500 is 120.000 euros without CAM . I am just a little lab compared to you guys , I would never had that money back . So I am having an improved custom made yenadent D 40 . I didn't want a Roland or another little machine . I believe a made the right choice . I will have it in 6 weeks , I am pretty excited , it is our first mill !

What upgrade?,and what price did you buy the machine?(if is no secret),and say hello to Mr.Nuri from Romania

 

[DMC]

I had One employee when I bought my first $250k milling system.

I had to use my house to back-up loan from bank. My wife and I were scared about that.

I can totally relate to you brother!

Fast-forward to today......One month left to pay off that loan!!! We did it! But I have One more year on another mill, then I am debit-free!

I also now own Two other mills, and a printer and all sorts of scanners and software and furnaces, etc....all paid for.

I had nothing Six years ago, but a tiny C&B lab that was hard for me to grow.....sounds about the same as you? No?

Now I own a million plus of equipment. No junk in my lab. It was all expensive and all runs perfectly still.

You can do it too! Use your brain, and don't get brainwashed by ads and bogus claims.

I closed my C&B lab and rent out the space and equip to other techs now. No more Docs for me, for now.


Scott

 

[Drizzt]

I had One employee when I bought my first $250k milling system.

I had to use my house to back-up loan from bank. My wife and I were scared about that.

I can totally relate to you brother!

Fast-forward to today......One month left to pay off that loan!!! We did it! But I have One more year on another mill, then I am debit-free!

I also now own Two other mills, and a printer and all sorts of scanners and software and furnaces, etc....all paid for.

I had nothing Six years ago, but a tiny C&B lab that was hard for me to grow.....sounds about the same as you? No?

Now I own a million plus of equipment. No junk in my lab. It was all expensive and all runs perfectly still.

You can do it too! Use your brain, and don't get brainwashed by ads and bogus claims.

I closed my C&B lab and rent out the space and equip to other techs now. No more Docs for me, for now.


Scott

The thing you have done is great and I salute you for that . The thing with my case is that I am in-debt already as 4 years ago we moved to our own building .

I feel that now I am ready to do the next step for my business .We are a 7 person lab , and we have been growing since we moved here , every year , not at a great rate , but steady , even though our economy as a country is terrible . When the whole crisis started , we decided to invest in technology and quality , when everyone else was panicked and started lowering their prices , buying cheaper and less quality products . It turned out to be the right choice . I think I can grow further with this machine . I am not relying on ads or sales reps to tell me what to do , I prefer doing the thinking part on my own , or ask for advice great guys such as you and the other members here in DLN .

For our first machine , the research is going on from last March , since the previous IDS . I think I am doing the right thing , for the money available . If our business grow that much , then my second machine will be something really really good . Don't forget that mine is a much smaller market than yours , I prefer making baby steps , at least for now . I will definitely keep you in mind and wish I can grow as much as you did .

Dimitris