Gold standard of milling machines?

[MoosetheGoose]

I was looking at a couple, the Datron, and the axsys, what would be the gold standard in terms of accuracy of mills? or is there another one I haven't seen? For milling zirconia and titanium

 

[Brett Hansen CDT]

PM7 has to be in the conversation

 

[tehnik]

Imes 350i and up?

 

[Yourgoes]

In terms of accuracy, there's no beating the big industrial machines. Röders, Willemin-Macodel, DMG, Datron, etc. They all have dental specific applications. They ain't cheap but you get what you pay for. There's a reason all of these machines are huge, its hard to stay stable and repeatable without mass and rigidity.

Besides being big, to obtain accuracy in the single digit micron range you need things like temperature control, laser measuring tools to detect machining surfaces, tool wobble, etc

Most medium/smaller dental machines don't have the real estate (or budget) for these things so they use other tools to get 'close'.

Things like touch probes are only looking at the tool in one dimension.
Temperature measuring (but no active temperature management system)
Tools; all tool makers have an internal tolerance of deviation between batches, one major tool maker has a tolerance of 20 microns for example, another one I know is 5.
CNC controller. This is the brains of the mill, some milling machine makers choose a 'cheaper' controller to reduce the end price of the mill, this also has a major effect on the machining and part tolerance.

So if you're going to make compromises, you should go into it with your eyes open and not believe the propaganda of the sales people. Every one of them will say their machine is the best... only one of them is telling the truth, the rest are liars... do your research and don't drink the koolaid is my advice.

 

[MoosetheGoose]

In terms of accuracy, there's no beating the big industrial machines. Röders, Willemin-Macodel, DMG, Datron, etc. They all have dental specific applications. They ain't cheap but you get what you pay for. There's a reason all of these machines are huge, its hard to stay stable and repeatable without mass and rigidity.

Besides being big, to obtain accuracy in the single digit micron range you need things like temperature control, laser measuring tools to detect machining surfaces, tool wobble, etc

Most medium/smaller dental machines don't have the real estate (or budget) for these things so they use other tools to get 'close'.

Things like touch probes are only looking at the tool in one dimension.
Temperature measuring (but no active temperature management system)
Tools; all tool makers have an internal tolerance of deviation between batches, one major tool maker has a tolerance of 20 microns for example, another one I know is 5.
CNC controller. This is the brains of the mill, some milling machine makers choose a 'cheaper' controller to reduce the end price of the mill, this also has a major effect on the machining and part tolerance.

So if you're going to make compromises, you should go into it with your eyes open and not believe the propaganda of the sales people. Every one of them will say their machine is the best... only one of them is telling the truth, the rest are liars... do your research and don't drink the koolaid is my advice.

So something like Datron would have a good CNC controller? you mentioned a couple of the big industrial machines, is there one that's superior to another? I know axsys is a big industrial machine but you didnt mention anything about it, is there a reason why?

As far as something like temperature and humidity control, is that something you just need to set up in the room that the actual mill is put into? I heard it mentioned before that due to cheaper metals on the housing of alot of milling units, over time due to temperature and humidity differences the metal will slightly warp causing inconsistencies in the milling?

Also how do I find out what each tool manufacturers internal tolerance of deviation is? Do I need to just ask?

 

[mmbh]

My Versamill from Axsys has been outstanding. Accurate and fast. Wet mill. Some like that, some don't.

 

[Wainwright]

I didn't think Datron was still really a thing in dental? I could be wrong. Very impressive machines when they still came to the tradeshows years ago.

Specs and numbers are important but remember you'll be relying on the provider/manufacturer for support and service, which is really important. If a part on the machine needs to be replaced or repaired, are they readily available and who will do the service (semi-locally)? Something to consider.

 

[Yourgoes]

So something like Datron would have a good CNC controller?

Yes

You mentioned a couple of the big industrial machines, is there one that's superior to another?

The ones I listed are comparable, pros and cons based on what you're doing, support (direct or through resellers) As was mentioned, Datron has less of a presence in Dental machines now

know axsys is a big industrial machine but you didnt mention anything about it, is there a reason why?

I think it’s a good machine, but I would consider it a medium size machine, not in the same class as the bigger machines

As far as something like temperature and humidity control, is that something you just need to set up in the room that the actual mill is put into? I heard it mentioned before that due to cheaper metals on the housing of alot of milling units, over time due to temperature and humidity differences the metal will slightly warp causing inconsistencies in the milling?

Temperature inside the milling chamber is key, keeping the room consistent helps but for high precision work the temperature of the work part and tool are key.

Also how do I find out what each tool manufacturers internal tolerance of deviation is? Do I need to just ask?

You can ask, but there’s no guarantee they’ll tell you. You can test the tools by sending them to people with the proper equipment and see for yourself.

 

[MoosetheGoose]

Yes

The ones I listed are comparable, pros and cons based on what you're doing, support (direct or through resellers) As was mentioned, Datron has less of a presence in Dental machines now

I think it’s a good machine, but I would consider it a medium size machine, not in the same class as the bigger machines


Temperature inside the milling chamber is key, keeping the room consistent helps but for high precision work the temperature of the work part and tool are key.

You can ask, but there’s no guarantee they’ll tell you. You can test the tools by sending them to people with the proper equipment and see for yourself.

Of the ones you mentioned as examples of good machines, which one do you think would have the best support? Our lab is located in an area that in person service is hard to find.

 

[MoosetheGoose]

Temperature inside the milling chamber is key, keeping the room consistent helps but for high precision work the temperature of the work part and tool are key.

How do I account for this? are there mills that will automatically account for this?

 

[cadfan]

cooled frame https://www.dentaldirekt.de/en/products/technologies/milling-machines/cimt-pi5 or next step Mikron HSM 200 U LP but support support support is the most important thing

 

[CoolHandLuke]

in terms of absolute gold standard to me its Kern

Kern uses dynamic fluid driven axes, called hydrodynamic bearings or hydrostatic drives. effectively they power the motion using hydraulic pressure that is controlled down to a tenth of a degree celcius to account for metal reactions to temperature expansion and contraction.

comes with its own compressor cause they don't trust you to build a dry air system, over 100 tool slots that are also on-the-fly programmable for new tools and Kern have used their own mills to expose themselves as kings in the industry by showing that they can MILL (not laser cut) into a Human Hair without breaking it, nor trashing their bits.

when it comes to CNC there is no such thing as overengineered. only underbudgeted.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

Of the ones you mentioned as examples of good machines, which one do you think would have the best support? Our lab is located in an area that in person service is hard to find.

whereabouts? Axsys currently sells and services across all North America including Canada, Alaska and Hawaii.

you can call and ask for Al Morad head of sales at 248-926-8810 but your location will narrow that to a person who deals in your territory and may infact be able to provide referrals from a semi-local customer as our customer base is growing by the day.

if it counts, i am one of the Application Engineers for Axsys and I, along with my team, also do support work for all the customers under the Dental branch of Axsys.

Axsys has a Mastercam branch too, so our knowledge base when it comes to machining and CNC control is huge and diverse. we are quite unique when it comes to comparing service, we let you control what qualifies as good design and we help you along the way learn how to use your software to get what you want out of it, which is where the Solutions part of it comes into play.

if you want to make Bars, we'll help you mill and help you control the output so you get the best result everytime by teaching you what you need to see on the screen and what it means to have good results.

and we're open to your suggestions too if you've been through the process with an external manufacturer and you aren't happy with their result we can help you do it better.

i am of course biased when it comes to talking about support, because that's been me my whole career. i bring 15 years of solo-supported or self-driven machining application to the team here and its been enlightening even for me.

edited to add: Hyperdent awarded two partners with resellers of the decade awards: Axsys, and Imagine.

i encourage you to give Axsys a call.

 

[mmbh]

That versamill 5x-500L may be my next addition.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

sounds great, looking forward to talking with you more. please don't hesitate to reach out if theres anything i can help with.

 

[mmbh]

Now if you could just have the mill cut the crown out of the disc, smooth the sprew area up and have a builit in sintering furnace on the side and make it all automated that'd be great, thanks.

 

[tehnik]

This is being developed along with elastic zirconia.

Now if you could just have the mill cut the crown out of the disc, smooth the sprew area up and have a builit in sintering furnace on the side and make it all automated that'd be great, thanks.