Going Model-less...have you?

[PDC]

As a lab who deals with Itero models, I would like to know if anyone has gotten their parameters down on their CAD settings (occlusion and contacts) to where they feel comfortable enough to go model-less with their milled zirconia and or Emax?
I know it's done on the Cerec mills even though I'm sure there must be some adjustment. So why can't we get there now? Not having this expense could make us more competitive.

 

[Affinity]

With respect, I think this is a terrible idea.. I couldnt send a crown out that I wasnt able to verify on a model. The itero models arent that great, even if they are accurate. Looking at a computer screen will never replace holding a model in your hand. But I think in the next 10 years or even sooner, we will be looking at projected 3D hologram images.. Maybe with accurate shades from the drs scanner... Yep, we will all be out of work... Dont take the craftsmanship out of our craft, or we wont have a craft..

 

[DMC]

scan the final crown and then use virtual model/atriculator to determine if contacts are too tight.
Software will tell you where, and how much to remove.

Close enough...

Does not exist yet, but it will.

 

[rkm rdt]

Sometimes I get cases without models.
I have to call the office and then send my driver back!!!

Pisses me off!

 

[user name]

You can make a contact too tight, or just right with just the glaze. Some labs debate solid models vs sectioned to verify, but youre willing to roll the dice? Crap crowns start with crap ideas.

 

[labtek]

***, You tell it like it is, so do you have any knowledge or heard anything about this book??

I have a question about the new Oliver Brix book. (Fascinating All-Ceramics)
The website says it is based on the seminar.....Does this mean it will have a step by step, recipe for fabricating an ideal emax restoration.

Will this book have a systematic, step by step procedure to accomplish this?

I have many dvds and books that show pretty pictures but no "formula" I dont need another picture book, i need the recipe and formula. If this is what is included in this book it will be priceless.

Thank you in advance for your reply.

 

[Bobby Orr ceramics]

Modelless.....bad business idea when clients want from you contacts, margins, and occlusion to be accurate to the micron all in harmony. If it's not dialed in as tight as a knats ars...... Unhappy client.

When docs mill their own units chairside, they have to adjust em into a model that is hard and soft tissue.

 

[DMC]

***, You tell it like it is, so do you have any knowledge or heard anything about this book??

I have a question about the new Oliver Brix book. (Fascinating All-Ceramics)
The website says it is based on the seminar.....Does this mean it will have a step by step, recipe for fabricating an ideal emax restoration.

Will this book have a systematic, step by step procedure to accomplish this?

I have many dvds and books that show pretty pictures but no "formula" I dont need another picture book, i need the recipe and formula. If this is what is included in this book it will be priceless.

Thank you in advance for your reply.

I don't read books. Sorry. I teach myself.

 

[ParkwayDental]

***, You tell it like it is, so do you have any knowledge or heard anything about this book??

I have a question about the new Oliver Brix book. (Fascinating All-Ceramics)
The website says it is based on the seminar.....Does this mean it will have a step by step, recipe for fabricating an ideal emax restoration.

Will this book have a systematic, step by step procedure to accomplish this?

I have many dvds and books that show pretty pictures but no "formula" I dont need another picture book, i need the recipe and formula. If this is what is included in this book it will be priceless.

Thank you in advance for your reply.

Look man I understand your trying to learn but you have blown up multiple threads about this book and no one has responded. Just get the dang book any book is a good investment.

 

[Tayebdental]

You could read all the books in the world about how to make a crown, you could be the smartest "book smart" in the universe, but if you do not have the dexterity and the artistic touch you are doomed. It all comes to, "show me your work baby"!.

 

[PDC]

You can make a contact too tight, or just right with just the glaze. Some labs debate solid models vs sectioned to verify, but youre willing to roll the dice? Crap crowns start with crap ideas.

I understand all the issues with this, but labs who deal with Docs who use intraoral scanners have to compete with slightly different business model than with docs doing traditional impressions. With a minimum charge of $25 for an Itero quadrant model and the ablility of the Doc to send to any lab with click of a button, costs become an important issue especially on posterior crowns. Glidewell will do a FCZ on an Itero model for a total of $127 and from the few I've seen, it looks pretty decent.

My point of this is, that with Cad designed crowns we should be able to set the parameters to give us something very consistent with results concerning all the variables we need to eliminate model costs.
Maybe a dream for now, but it looks like somebody out there would be closing in on this.

 

[ParkwayDental]

PDC, I know people will think i am crazy for saying this but I listened to a speaker this year that says his fits are better on the model-less cases he has done then the ones when he uses his models.
He claimed that in the next year he will be model-less for cases that come from intra oral scanners. Claims Docs are having better results seating these types of cases.

With that said I am still not convinced, I still like to have a working model and solid model for now.

 

[Marcusthegladiator CDT]

PDC, I know people will think i am crazy for saying this but I listened to a speaker this year that says his fits are better on the model-less cases he has done then the ones when he uses his models.
He claimed that in the next year he will be model-less for cases that come from intra oral scanners. Claims Docs are having better results seating these types of cases.

With that said I am still not convinced, I still like to have a working model and solid model for now.

Of course they are, Loose contacts, No internal adaptation, low occlusion = no chair time.

 

[PDC]

Of course they are, Loose contacts, No internal adaptation, low occlusion = no chair time.

I think that pretty much sums it up Marcus!

 

[DarrenS]

***, You tell it like it is, so do you have any knowledge or heard anything about this book??

I have a question about the new Oliver Brix book. (Fascinating All-Ceramics)
The website says it is based on the seminar.....Does this mean it will have a step by step, recipe for fabricating an ideal emax restoration.

Will this book have a systematic, step by step procedure to accomplish this?

I have many dvds and books that show pretty pictures but no "formula" I dont need another picture book, i need the recipe and formula. If this is what is included in this book it will be priceless.

Thank you in advance for your reply.

I am in the middle of his book right now. He does give some insight to how he blends powders and the ratios he uses. A ton of great illustrations for you to see as well. It was definately worth the money to us.

 

[eyeloveteeth]

we do modeless - not all, they've been great. I just got a photo yesterday of e.max model-less - I actually wouldn't have known which was fake if I hadn't personally made that crown.

 

[MAFCDL]

We tested the waters with model free with one of our itero accounts. He is a faculty member with the Spear group and was more interested in the research behind if the model free concept was truly viable. We got some decent results, but ultimately we determined it just wasn't in the patients, doctors, or labs best interest to go model free yet. There was no way any of us could honestly say that it added any worthwhile efficiency to the process for the few dollars it saved. I'm interested to see where the concept goes as time goes on.

 

[rkm rdt]

I think material choice plays a huge role as well.

It would be easier when working with nano-composites than with ceramics or metal, but still in a limited capacity.

 

[disturbed]

surface texture?papilla?ideal tissue displacement? doomed... BAD IDEA.

 

[rkm rdt]

surface texture?papilla?ideal tissue displacement? doomed... BAD IDEA.

Ya ,scanners will never pick that stuff up.....