Emax Ceram over LAVA

[PeroutySmiles]

Anyone have tips for preventing the porcelian from lifting in the central fossae of molars.

 

[TheLabGuy]

Wash bake around the margin and central dissectional groove only.

 

[paulg100]

porcelain lifting! or porcelain contracting and the fissures opening?

Porcelain lifting sounds like you are having a major bonding issue if thats what you mean..

I fire a sprinkle layer onto all my zirconia now, fire this on then stain with ceramic stains, same as emax.

This will reduce shrinkage and improve the bond.

 

[user name]

Are you applying a layer of ZirLiner first?

 

[sixonice]

Anyone have tips for preventing the porcelian from lifting in the central fossae of molars.

as another member suggested, be sure you are usingthe zirliner material for your first bake. the zirliner does a number of things: it gives base color (if needed. if the zirconia is already color treated, use the clear zirliner),flourescense, and most important it provides a very secure bond between the e.max porcelain and the zirconia framework. if your outsourcing your zirconia or making them in house, be sure to bulk those central fossa areas up to prevent this problem. i think you will see improvement very quickly. be sure to fire the zirliner at the correct temperature also.

 

[PeroutySmiles]

thanks folks

Yes I used the zirliner, The slifting occurs between the liner and body, Yes I have tried a prelimary wash of body. I have left the zirliner alone and I have blasted it before the wash. I have done body only bakes and filled in when I stack incisal. Looks like repeated firings is the only answer.

 

[Toast]

I have this happen at times too. I'm using emax ceram, clear zirliner, on Lava. It really sucks when you're refining the anatomy and you break through to a void. It usually takes two firings to fix. I haven't figured out what causes it (other than me) since it is intermittent. Hope you get some good answers, I'll be following this thread for some answers as well.

 

[paulg100]

tbh i really hope your not sending that stuff out!

Those lifting issues sound like a time bomb waiting to go off after the works gone out.. wether you can see it or not.

The only thing i can think to suggest is steam cleaning the frame..then the frame with liner on before you apply ceramic. Like maybe theres some surface contaminent or oil/grease getting onto it before hand.

Or maybe you are doing that and theres oil in the airline similar to another thread on here??

What ever you do do not sandblast.. The ali oxide has a different CTE to the layering ceramic so any left over residue or impregnation onto the surface and your gonna have probs for sure.

Or maybe LAVA just aint compatible with emax ceram, sais it is in the manual but never treid it. im sure its within the CTE range as all the other ZR so i doubt that is the case.

 

[TheLabGuy]

It's e.max ceram folks, it's a very fine grain ceramic that shrinks a lot. You guys are getting use to your one powder's/bake's too much. A good zirliner on a properly supported framework, then a wash around the margins and central fossae, then a body bake and most likely another for fine tuning your anatomy so it doesn't look like chicken scratches, then you're good to go IMO.

 

[PeroutySmiles]

TheLabGuys right. Even Ivoclar tech reps just feed me the same info thats in the literature. cut the central groove down to the liner and let it rip. Oh yeah and "well if you use our zirconia, blah, blah, blah"
I feel you Toast, I vibrate porcelian into the void and upon refining the anatomy you sometimes get a mini void that needs to be added to with the AO porcelain during glaze. Emax dances on the edge of zirconia CTE so it can also be used with the lithium disilicate cores. Love the way it looks , hate the way it acts sometimes

 

[TheLabGuy]

Love the way it looks , hate the way it acts sometimes

That's the same thing I say about my girlfriends!!!!!!!!!!! HA!!!

 

[RileyS]

Are you guys still using emax ceram on your zirc frameworks? Have you had many cases come back for remakes from sheared porcelain?

 

[Hal2a]

I have used emax ceram on Lava and have no problems. The Ivoclar manual say its OK. Apply zirliner, then do a sprinkle bake. After your first build, take an instrument with a fine point and push it through the porcelain to the frame in the fossa. Place 3 or 4 of these holes and fire, You will find it easy to seal these openings in your second bake, rather than doing a large cut through the fossa. This should take care of your lifting.

 

[RileyS]

Cool beans.
Thanks Hoser!

 

[EJADA]

No shear here nor occlusal lift with e.max. I used to get occ lift with d.sign but not any more.

 

[paulg100]

"Are you guys still using emax ceram on your zirc frameworks? Have you had many cases come back for remakes from sheared porcelain?"

none so far.

 

[PeroutySmiles]

"Are you guys still using emax ceram on your zirc frameworks? Have you had many cases come back for remakes from sheared porcelain?"

none so far.

no, make sure your copings have sufficient build up and that you are getting a good solid bake in the central groove/fossa on a seperate bake before building up the crown

 

[TheLabGuy]

"Are you guys still using emax ceram on your zirc frameworks? Have you had many cases come back for remakes from sheared porcelain?"

none so far.

Nope, and I do them almost everyday now. Paul, as a non-research type of test. Go ahead and build one up like your suppose to do (i.e. zirliner, e.max wash, then bake etc...) and go ahead and try to grind porcelain off that coping. It's just as tough, if not tougher than a PFM in my opinion. I know, that's not proper research but you'd be surprised when you get to the nit and gritty of it.

 

[disturbed]

.../facepalm.....

 

[CatamountRob]

.../facepalm.....

Ahh Dude, you really shouldn't go facealmin' The Lab Guy....
It's like throwing rocks at a bear....