Coloring a raw Cercon Zirconia Frame

[odontek]

Hi, has anyone here fooled around with a raw Cercon frame and color it with the material being used by Lava or any other system to stain their frames? Did it work? Reason why i asked is because I saw some lava cores and it came out much translucent than the cercon cores. Colored Cercon blanks are just too opaque compared to Lava, I have a Cercon machine and wish to have colored frames like Lava has.

 

[charles007]

Check with Eric on DT, he also has the cercon and does outstanding work......If he uses a different coloring liquid, I bet its Zirkonzahn .

 

[PGguy]

Ya we used ZirkonZahn to stain our copings...they have the whole shade guide(A-D)

 

[odontek]

Thanks guys, got those stains from zirkonzahn as well. It made life much easier

How long do you dry the copings after you dip it in the stain. Seems like the recommended drying time on the light is too long.

Thanks again,
Jojo

 

[sixonice]

Dry them out according to the manufacturers instructions, even if it seems a bit long. You've got to dry the dipped copings ALL THE WAY. If you don't the residual moisture left behind will contaminate your sintering oven coil(s). Trust me, I learned the hard way.

 

[odontek]

Thanks, wouldn't try it any other way anymore.

 

[OmarQ]

cercon is suppose to be coming out with shaded zirconia . not just white and colored soon aren't they?

 

[digitalcadcam1]

We once used Lava Shade FS1 on a Zeno Frame as we had to create a frameworks that was outside the frame size of 3M Lava - Turned out great but Zeno was bulky - Shade Worked great

 

[grantoz]

colouring zi

i am ozzy so we spell with slight differences .however i have done approx 13000 zi crowns in five years using zirkon zahn their colour liquids are by far the best, but you must dry the crown or coping for atleast 20 minutes and even longer if their is more bulk good luck

 

[clearH2O]

All-z coloring

Hi, I visit one local lab for study all-z finishing and saw their stain somehow get brownish shade or a little whitish. As I understand whitish is the natural color of Zircon, but where is the brown came from? Is it come from the etching or staining.
Thanks
Clearh2o

 

[sixonice]

Hi, I visit one local lab for study all-z finishing and saw their stain somehow get brownish shade or a little whitish. As I understand whitish is the natural color of Zircon, but where is the brown came from? Is it come from the etching or staining.
Thanks
Clearh2o

plain zirconia is a very bright white on it's own. the brown color you saw was certainly from staining, either by dipping the zirconia in a stain liquid or externally applied by the technician.

 

[clearH2O]

No more scare

plain zirconia is a very bright white on it's own. the brown color you saw was certainly from staining, either by dipping the zirconia in a stain liquid or externally applied by the technician.

Hi sixonice, I now using CAD design, CAM mill, MANUAL stain, glaze and finishing zirconia. Fun and hard work but do I run before I know how to craw?
Can say anything more than-I learn a lot in three moth from PFM to All ceramics. No more scare man! no more! I scare I may give up Dental Lab Tech to clean toilet for a living if I have to fight those CHIT from oversea outsource.
Man, I tell you I hate my job didn't I. However survival skill made me went off the door to computer night class, then studied those boogie CAD/CAM. I did chase that scare out of my mind, and out of my negative thinking. Thanks every one who taught me.
Wante get more boogie CAD/CAM news.

 

[Mark Jackson]

Hi, has anyone here fooled around with a raw Cercon frame and color it with the material being used by Lava or any other system to stain their frames? Did it work? Reason why i asked is because I saw some lava cores and it came out much translucent than the cercon cores. Colored Cercon blanks are just too opaque compared to Lava, I have a Cercon machine and wish to have colored frames like Lava has.

No can do my friend. There are several reasons not to do it, not least of all it's against protocol. How do you know that the acidic nature of the pigment will not affect the bonder in the Cercon blocks? You will also find that the pigment will outgas in the Cercon Heat and contominate your muffle and ruin it.

Use the shaded Cercon blocks if you need color, and use the other systems if you can't get the results you want with Cercon. We have 7 different CAD CAM systems here that make zirconia and every one has some strength or weakness that makes it better than the others. No one system will do everything you want, but Cercon is actually one of the better ones in my opinion.

 

[charles007]

Hi, has anyone here fooled around with a raw Cercon frame and color it with the material being used by Lava or any other system to stain their frames? Did it work? Reason why i asked is because I saw some lava cores and it came out much translucent than the cercon cores. Colored Cercon blanks are just too opaque compared to Lava, I have a Cercon machine and wish to have colored frames like Lava has.

Just noticed that was posted 7/29/2009 which must have been before Cercon had colored blocks. Or they improved the coloring at some point after 7-29-2009. I remember Eric on another dental forum telling me he didn't like the color was getting with Cercon around that same time......
Now Cercon blocks are colored, so please refer to Mark's post about not using another brand of coloring material.

 

[DMC]

Mark,
against protocol, gheez dude. Knock it off with your made-up rules. How annoying! All good technicians end up mixing materials to suit their desired results. Since you are just a lab owner and not really a tech....ah. Have you ever heard of Techs mixing porcelains? One opaque manuf, differnt body porc, another manufs stains, and then even a fourth manufs. glaze! Happens everyday and is not illegal. Maybe even a fifth manufactures porc oven that has customized cycles by each individual tech. That know-how and experience of all materials is what separates the good from the so-so techs. If you just follow the manufactures instructions eveytime, than you are nothing special imo.

I guess you are talking about the silica layer on the MoSi2 elements flaking off
and turning Zirconia Green, or other colors, right?

That is the effect of the Molybdenum alloy touching the Oxygen containing atmosphere and burning the metal element at high temp. The part that contaminates the Zirconia is not the stain liquid, but rather the gases released from the burning exposed metal element. It is 100% necessary to have that shiny Silica coating to get good color. Never heard of a muffle being contaminated. Todays sintering ovens get soo hot, they will burn their own elements if not coated. That's what is causing a weird atmosphere inside the oven.

That crystal layer can be re-grown a couple times, until eventually there is not enough of it left to spread over the exposed metal element. Just baking oven over and over empty will re-grow the crystals. When you come into work on Mon after a cool weekend in the lab, you may find flakes of Silica all inside your sintering oven and exposed metal on heating elements. That is what causes discoloration. Has nothing to do with the staining liquid at all.

The layer flakes off due to mis-matched CTE of the two materials on the MoSi2 elements. Super Kanthal elements have the best life-span, but all of these style elements will shed their Silica layer, regardless of what Zirconia or staining liquid you use.

Newer ovens do not have this heating technology, and the fear of discolored Zirconia is erased because there is no exposed metal elements to worry about.

Most stain liquid is rusty-radiator fluid. It's just metal oxides (rust) in radiator fluid. Not that acidic is it's liquid form, but when it burns it does release an acidic gas. The acidic gas can rust and corrode metals near your sintering over, but has no effect on the cermic coating on the heating elements. Silica is very corrosion resistant. Also, I would not worry about any staining liquid breaking down the binders in the Zirconia. Mark just made that up. Sounds good, right? But....

I've actually tried all stains on almost all Zirconias. Works just fine IMO. I put Zirkon Zahn special colors on my Lava. I know people who put 3M stains on other Zirconia.

Your color issue is probably not going to get better by switching the stains. 3M's Zirconia will always look better than any Cercon Zirconia due to the Zirconia, and not really the stains.

I have done plenty of experimenting and speak from my own results.

(Hi Mark!)

 

[Mark Jackson]

Mark,

I guess you are talking about the silica layer on the MoSi2 elements flaking off
and turning Zirconia Green, or other colors, right?

That is the effect of the MoSi2 touching the Oxygen containing atmosphere and burning the metal element at high temp. The part that contaminates the Zirconia is not the stain liquid, but rather the gases released from the burning exposed metal element.

Not that acidic is it's liquid form, but when it burns it does release an acidic gas. I would not worry about any staining liquid breaking down the binders in the Zirconia. Mark just made that up. Sounds good, right? But....

I've actually tried all stains on almost all Zirconias. Works just fine IMO. I put Zirkon Zahn special colors on my Lava. I know people who put 3M stains on other Zirconia.

Your color issue is probably not going to get better by switching the stains. 3M's Zirconia will always look better than any Cercon Zirconia due to the Zirconia, and not really the stains.

I have done plenty of experimenting and speak from my own results.

++The parts in blue were added by *** after my post. They speak for themselves, and show EXACTLY why the FDA needs to pay him a visit.
Yes, I'm referring to the oxide deposits on the heating elements. I don't recall you owning a Cercon Heat, but they are very sensitive to contamination and since the Cercon oven was not designed to have pigments run in them, they are especially prone to it. Ask me how I know??

One way to minimize outgassing is to do a predrying process in an old porcelain furnace, which will evaporate the pigment fuid absorbed by the green zirconia, but again, Cercon was not designed for this process, and neither was the oven, so there is STILL a significant risk of contamnination. As I ststaed earlier, Cercon has shaded blocks, and it's just better to use the PROPER material, AS DIRECTED. The shaded blocks in combination with liners should accomplish everything you need.

Contrary to what anybody says, there is an acidic nature to the pigmenting liquids, and they CAN affect the binders used in the zirconia. In fact, the BruxZir blocks, for example, are processed using a completely different, UNBOUND zirconia, and this is due in part to the pigmenting necessary shade the material.

Using any kind of non-approved pigmenting liquid can affect the binders which hold the zirconai particles together and once this grain boundry is disturbed, it can cause defects and griffth flaws withing the development of the crystalline pahse of the zirconia during sintering. It is not approved, nor recommended!

There are many zircinai systems on the market, and while the raw materials may only come from a couple sources, they are all very different in the other trace elements and the way they are processed and bound. You cannot freely mix and match. To do so is dangerous and experimenting on patients.

 

[DMC]

LOL

I have rooms of experiments! Who said they ended up in someones mouth aszwhole? I speak from experience, not just making up stuff.
If I find something I like, I pick up the phone and call Pete Bungarden, or one of the three CDTs at 3M. They are taking my adevice and offereing the accent stains soon. That's how technology advances!
I'm doing nothing behind closed doors aqnd have no illegal secrets.

I'll go get a pH test kit and show you just how acidic the actual liquid form of stains really are. I bet you have no idea, do ya?

The Silica coating is not affected by acids. popcorn

You are not going to make any friends here by continuing to threating others with bogus FDA rules that you make-up.

Cercon oven is nothing but an empty box with the same heating elements that were in the original Lava-therm. 3M later switched to Super-Kanthal elements.

 

[DMC]

Other sources for elements are from Sentro-tech, ZIRCAR Ceramics: MOSI2 , and Luoyang Gefei Co.,Ltd., and of course Kanthal.

 

[DMC]

HEATING ELEMENTS: After operation at high temperatures, a protective layer of vitreous silica (SiO2) will form on the surface of MOSI2 heating Elements.

The ability of elements to withstand oxidation at high temperatures depends on the formation of this protective layer of vitreous silica on the surface. When molybdenum disilicide reacts with oxygen in the atmosphere, the layer of glass is formed and under this a thin layer of molybdenum silicide with a lower silicon content (Mo5 Si3).

The protective silica layer may spall off the elements. This is normally due to:

The contamination of the surface layer by foreign oxides, which change the terminal expansion of the glass layer and cause spalling. In new furnaces this may be caused by volatiles released by insulation materials. Spalling should subside with the depletion of these volatiles. Contamination may be caused by volatiles released from the furnace load. In this case spalling will probably not change.

When elements are operated at high temperatures for extended periods, the thickness of the protective layer increases and may exhibit a tendency to flake off when cooled down. The protective layer is, however, reformed as soon as the element re-attains a high temperature.

On an unprotected element surface, e.g. the surface from which the layer has flaked off, a yellowish, powdery layer (MoO3) is formed. This, however, does not affect the formation of a new silica skin at temperatures above 800° C (1470° F). This yellowish layer comes off in the form of smoke when the silica skin is re-formed.

 

[DMC]

Mark, All MoSi2 elements are basically the same technology.

All suffer from Silica layer flaking off. That burning metal will discolor the Zirconia.

Show me one example of a stain liquid messing up Zirconia, and I'll eat my words.

Otherwise, I think you are just making up stuff.