3DSystem or EnvisionTec? Or Objet?!?

[Kan]

Hi Guys,

Long time reader here... I have been reading up on all your comments and posts with the varies printers and finally decided to invest into one.

I have been looking in to Objet 260V, EnvisionTec Perfactory 4 DDP and 3Dent, and also 3D System's 3500 series.

Objet seems to be overly expensive. The post-processing (is that the technical term?) seems to be the most complicated of all three. And I haven't heard much good things about it here in the forum....

EnvisionTec has the most simple post-processing, but the printers are expensive. Then again, the DDP can be used to print both models and copings.

The price for 3D System printers are cheaper and I have read nothing but good things about the quality of the models. But the 3510 MP and DP are limited to their specific materials/roles (even though I think they are all just the same printers)...

I just want to have a second, third and forth opinion before I dive into this head first. First hand experiences would be great!

Thanks for all the help!

Kan

 

[neila]

What would you be printing? Models or parts?

 

[CoolHandLuke]

i print models on 260v and parts on 3500. just did a PM on the 3500, too. easy to do.

yes getting the support off the models on the 260v can be iffy, but in time you will nail it down. it needs time in the acid and a good powerwash. just be careful in fine detail areas.

 

[neila]

We could never get the 260V to be accurate enough for C+B. We do ortho models on ours, we have a 500V as well. We get the accuracy for the models on the MP3510, but the reliability of the 3 3D systems printers we have is brutal.

 

[exo]

Wait for ids 2015. There'll be some new printer-releases. I still heared something from roland, rapidshape...

 

[KentPWalton]

1st Gen Tech is what I prefer to stay away from. Let them release more updates and work the bugs out!

 

[KentPWalton]

We need more information. What do you plan on printing? Either way, I don't think

you're going to find an "all in one" machine to do everything that's needed. I've been

saying it for a couple of years now, a reliable machine that can print all materials

with the accuracy is much needed in our industry. No one is there yet and the

materials need to advance more as well.

 

[Kan]

Thanks everyone for all your info.

We are planning to print models for crown and bridge works. I suppose ortho models as well if there's a demand. We already have clients who regularly send us outsourced printed models and we are also getting more inquiry about intraoral scan support...

We got a couple of sample models from Stratasys awhile back and the models were covered with a thick layer of wax-like substance. It turns out that the models were not cleaned properly and those were just the support material...

But if the people at Stratasys cannot clean the models completely, maybe it is really that difficult to clean? What's worse is that they just can't be bothered to send out a properly cleaned sample model to a potential client.... then I am not really sure if we should get a glorified plaster model replacement from them...

CoolHandLuke: Do you use the 260V models for crown and bridge? Do you find them accurate enough for it? And how's the reliability between the two printers?

Nelia: Do you often have problems with the 3DS 3510MP? When I was chatting with the sales agent, he said there were some reliability problems with the older 3DS printers, but the 3510MP is now "much" better.... then again, he IS the sales agent, so I suppose I should take it with a grain (or a full spoonful) of salt.

There is also the general purpose printers like the 3Ds 3510 SD/HD... with these I can't use the "dental" materials, but I won't be limited to the "dental" materials as well... and the 3510HD can print both non-burnout and burnout resins (so for both models and wax ups?)

Thanks a bunch!

 

[KentPWalton]

Kan,

The Stratasys printers are not going to be as accurate for crown and bridge as the 3510. The prints are easier to clean up from a 3D Systems printer

than that of a Stratasys. I think they're overpriced and under deliver. If they can't give me a higher quality part than that of a 3DS and charge 40%

more for their printer, why buy one? That being said, I think they're good printers, just not for crown and bridge. I think they're great for ortho

appliances because they have some really nice material.

You can get some castable material from 3DS, it's just not labeled "Dental", which we

all know costs more, that can be used in the 3510 Models.

If I were to set up a business, I would have an EnvisionTec 3Dent for models and

a 3510DP or HD Plus for crown and bridge. That's just me though.

 

[Kan]

3DS limits the 3510MP for model materials and the model materials can only be used in the 3510MP. So I was thinking, I could get the 3510HD, where I can use non dental castable materials and the normal industrial matierals for the models themselves... But is this route more expensive in the long run?

 

[CoolHandLuke]

no, just more expensive in the short run.

as to your earilier questions, it really depends on your workfow. for regular c+b singles and bridges it helps identify contact issues and not much else. these models are not suitable for waxing onto. fitting a printed wax sure. i can show u pics of printed model with printed resin denture frame that fit in the patient with no issues, cast without warping, and went smooth as silk.

all done via IOS (trios).

for implant models it is super easy to make soft tissue models, and identify again contacts and layer to abutments.

but if you plan on printing the model and then scanning the print to do design you will encounter real problems.

 

[Kan]

more expensive in the short run? I thought the materials will be more expensive (using non-plaster replacement resin for the models)... so please enlighten me.

It would be great if you can post some pictures... any little info will help.

And if you can give me more info in the implant models, that would be great as well.

We are already milling the wax ups by scanning the plaster models... so if we go digital models, we will just match the models with the wax up done digitally.

Thanks for all the help.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

more expensive in the short run.

assuming you are a business and not a hobbyist, you'll have worked the cost of time and material into your final line item cost. if you are a smart business owner you are charging plus a profit.

so the material is already paid for. it is therefore not a worry to your bottom line. you are making profit in excess of the cost to produce.

it only costs you to do remakes and bad parts.

 

[neila]

Don't forget to factor in the maintenance cost of the printer. A 3D systems printer will cost in the region of 16k for a maintenance contract after the first year. Obviously this depends on your geographic region etc. The cost of the material is a big expense for any printer. 3D systems is more expensive compared to Objet. My personal opinion is that with the material that is available for Objet right now the accuracy would not be there for Objet models for C+B

 

[BDDS]

Keep in mind light cure resin as well ... many new materials coming out soon. Asiga?

 

[Kan]

Nelia: This is why I want to hear from user experiences... how often do they break down? And what is the routine maintenance on these things?

 

[RJS8669]

Been running a MP3500 for about two years. PearlStone material. Pretty satisified.

Two points - the maintenance contract's can be a real bite. I made the decision to have one of my techs take the 3DS 5-day course so we can do a lot of the routine maintenance and repairs in house. So far, so good. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Also, I have to disagree with CHL( I hate doing that cuz he's infinitely smarter than I am about this stuff) - we are currently using the Core3D protocol to fabricate printed models with implant analogs and then scanning those models to make the final restorations. Done about a dozen cases this way and they have all "dropped in" with little to no adjustment. Maybe we are getting lucky, but I have no reason for the now to doubt the accuracy of the models we are printing.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

you are scanning Implant models. big difference over scanning a wild untamed margin that may contain small features and sharp angles. implants by nature don't suffer from this kind of difficulty in manufacturing. implant models are about the only thing i'd actually feel confident to re-scan.

my 3500 has had 2 PM's done in its 3 year career. once a year. quite voluntarily. each time for some months after that the print times are faster. as time goes on it slows down.

sometimes we get the X-Follower error and just take a rag to it. not often. easy to do.

given the history of the 3000 though i wouldnt be surprised to see the 3500 suffer the same fate in 2 or 3 years.

 

[neila]

The 3510 is a little more reliable than the older 3500. Having said that in any given week there is one or more of the 3 printers needing attention. the feed mechanism for the material on the 3510 is a lot better, that is one of the biggest problems on the older machines. The kind of issues we have had are diverse and would be too long to list. When they are working they produce good results. We do routine maintenance ourselves and can fix most issues that arise.

 

[BobCDT]

We recently tested Objet and found it very accurate for models. Also like the wide variety of materials that can be printed on a single machine. We have also spoken with many labs that have Objet printers and they report better reliability than others.