Industrial scanner and exocad

[Prosthodontics]

Hi all,

For a number of reasons, we are likely going down the industrial scanner (non-dental) route. We are prepared that integration with exocad is non-existent and we are prepared to do a lot of manual inputting.

It has been brought to my attention that copying scanning of wax-ups may not be as accurate? Why is that and how to overcome it?

Will the virtual articulator and articulator and facebow scanning capability of exocad be preserved with the use of an industrial scanner?

I appreciate all the help I can get. It is a lot harder to go the industrial route!

Cheerio.

 

[Affinity]

If your scanner can output .stl, then you can just import the file into exocad. You just cant use exoscan to run the scanner. What is the purpose of going this route? There are capable scanners in the dental market. Sounds like a PIA to me.
What scanner are you looking at?

 

[Prosthodontics]

Yes, we are planning to import STLs. We are going industrial for a couple of reasons. 1) I have an interest in maxillo- & cranio-facial prosthodontics so 130mm FOV from iMetric is not big enough. 2) The milling centre is partner an University so we need to acquire a scanner for other industrial purposes.

Just wondering what other issues I can expect and ways to overcome it. Obviously, not many milling centres are using an industrial scanner. I suspect the major players are so I am pretty sure it is doable.

 

[Beatrice]

We are using industrial scanner since 2001.
We even had our scanner developed by the CNRC (Canadian National Research Center) the same team that had the privilege to scan the "Mona Lisa" couple of years ago.
Industrial scanner will give you a very accurate scan BUT they are VERY VERY VERY hard to handle, need specific room, specific floor and a lots of knowledge just to adapt them to the dental world.

I really don't understand what you are trying to achieve here, you will have to invest multiple millions $ (4-5 even more) to be able to mill 1 first piece, why you don't outsource yours needs or try to collaborate with ppl that have already this equipment (us could be an example, but there some few other out there if you look)

Plus you want to use exocad software, it is a good software as good as 3shape or dental wings BUT if you look carefully all MAJOR players use their own software to mill bars, 3i use an industrial software, dentsply (ISUS) have their own developed for this purpose and Atlantis for custom abutment also use their own software. WE do have our own software for our bars and our anti-snoring device and are still developing other software for more purpose.

So even if you get to the point to make everything work you will find that you lack something compare to those majors players and realize you will have to invest other millions $ just to get your software running and that it not considering time. Making an industrial scanner working will take many many month, we had to use couple of month to make it work and this is because we have years of experience of using industrial scanner for dental/medical field. And still, even with an industrial scanner, some will be fast but not precise enough for implant they will be not better than a good imetric scanner, just bigger and faster. Some technology will be limited in precision, like light scanner that project a pattern will never reach more than 5 micro of precision whatever all the company will claim, getting lower then that involve changing some physics laws...(well that could be very fun if you are able to do so!!).

So well i wish you good luck in this project but be warn you getting in something hard and costly...really costly!

 

[Affinity]

You could use dental shaper to create all your meshes etc. but you can do this in exocad. You will need software to acquire scanner images. Im way outta my league here, so Ill bow out, I doubt you will find too many people willing to share how to get an industrial scanner working for dental. If it is a university project, shouldnt they figure it out? There are dental scanners that can be had for under $20k that have a large field of view. Look at the steinbichler. If you want full facial images there are facial scanners, ct scan etc.... Save yourself the heartache.

 

[Prosthodontics]

Thanks guys. We are backed by the State and Federal government as well as some private investors with a contribution by one of the top 8 universities of Australia.

Whilst we don't have very deep pockets like Bernard's Panthera, we have had a 7-figure AUD investment already from various stake-holders just on the CAD-CAM manufacture side and another $100M AUD in the whole facility doing a variety of other researches.

The backbone of the fabrication equipments have been bought and installed. My job is putting all the bits & pieces together and working on the workflow. There is a commercial interest in all these but by enlarge, we are a research facility and my PhD is very likely be based on it. Our commercial target is really a very small niche group of technicians and specialists.

We have had extensive chats with Horst regarding the iMetric but unfortunately their maximum FOV is 130mm and we want something along the lines of 200mm for other purposes as requested by our funding partners. Unfortunately, the issue is that there is a lot of testing to be done with our photogrammetry setup.

The point of my post is just to ask the experienced exocad users if they can foresee a problem with lack of integration of an industrial scanner in exocad so we are prepared for it

 

[Dentaleng]

Exocad is not industrial. CAD CAM integration. This is what you should be worried of.

 

[cadfan]

I dont think you find any exocad user millcenter whatever using an industrial scanner with that range sharing knowlege. You can ask the exoboys if they can help you . Do you need 200 mm FOV in high resolution 5 micron and less or do you need for example 130 mm high resolution like imetric that can be matched in 200 mm FOV with for example 50 my. Do you need 200 mm FOV for high end surgery parts ??? for dental 130 mm is more than enough.

 

[Prosthodontics]

I dont think you find any exocad user millcenter whatever using an industrial scanner with that range sharing knowlege. You can ask the exoboys if they can help you . Do you need 200 mm FOV in high resolution 5 micron and less or do you need for example 130 mm high resolution like imetric that can be matched in 200 mm FOV with for example 50 my. Do you need 200 mm FOV for high end surgery parts ??? for dental 130 mm is more than enough.

Hi Cadfan,

Thanks for being helpful. My knowledge is limited but I believe resolution is different to accuracy. A high MP camera can give you more resolution e.g. data points but not necessary accuracy. At 200mm FOV to get 5micron accuracy from what I know is technically very difficult if not impossible unless photogrammetry is used. We are planning to use photogrammetry even at FOV of 100mm to get as close to to the benchmark as possible.

At this stage, our industrial partners don't need the 5micron accuracy for FOV of 200mm but when we do expand into another areas that will undoubtedly be the way we will be heading.

Already in touch with the exoboys

 

[Affinity]

care to tell us what you will be using this to do?

 

[cadfan]

Hi Cadfan,

Thanks for being helpful. My knowledge is limited but I believe resolution is different to accuracy. A high MP camera can give you more resolution e.g. data points but not necessary accuracy. At 200mm FOV to get 5micron accuracy from what I know is technically very difficult if not impossible unless photogrammetry is used. We are planning to use photogrammetry even at FOV of 100mm to get as close to to the benchmark as possible.

At this stage, our industrial partners don't need the 5micron accuracy for FOV of 200mm but when we do expand into another areas that will undoubtedly be the way we will be heading.

Already in touch with the exoboys

The limit from scanner side is 2.5 - 3 micron for a single shot deepened on surface ,free form scans like stumps and implant scans like scan markers are two very different things guys like horst or optimet work on implants with xml not stl and special scan markers ( true to shape and torque ) . Working on free form parts the repeatability is around 15 my but the problem on free form parts is the lateral resolution its not possible to get a margin only in Z resolution but if you measure parts like stumps you have more flat parts like occlusal area and the walls than curved like margins . I dont know any research about margin accuracy. It would be interested to see only two margin lines in such accuracy tests. their is the big advantage of push- buttons ( small cmg ) like incise or all the ex nobel scanner from renishaw but with less speed. Accuracy is always a mix off FOV accuracy and Z accuracy and matching accuracy ( photogrammetry helps ) and the algorithms that kick of lateral resolution and the point spacing on a flat surface no problem but on curves like margins a bit more helps. But all these scanned accuracy at for example a margin has his limits on the production side a 0.6 burr can only describe a curve and this relatives the scan for free form parts like bridges on stumps.

 

[[email protected]]

It's worth looking at the way the light is projected anyway. You're worrying a about a camera which is fine, but there's a few other issues that affect resolution more. I naively thought upgrading camera would help. It didn't. The original Kavo scanner was ahead of its time, pity bruekmann stick with their secret on the Kavo. The stuffed a good scanner. Nice optics, tilt table just slow . Try buying a 3d-David kit and learning the way these things work.