Occlusion key scan - DWings DWOS user - problem

[Razvan]

Hello,

I have a DWings 3Series scanner and I am a beginner user. I currently work on a full implant lower/upper arch. I have a problem with scanning the occlusion key as it won't scan the full occlusion (with the antagonist). I tried to switch between the lower-upper arch so maybe I get a better scan, but failed. I balanced the stabilizator, didn't work. I think the distance between the implants is the problem. How can I handle it? How can I set the scanner to scan higher the occlusion so I can get a few points for re-adaptation of the antagonist? I coulnd't find any information in the manual. I need it this position (like it's in the articulator). What solutions do I have? I posted the image with my case:

Scanning result - I don't have points in order to reposition the upper arch on the occlusion key.

Many thanks!

 

[cadfan]

Your out of the height of the measuring field maybe it works if you make additional scans with an angle. 30 degrees front down

 

[blue tooth]

First, you don't need the bite. Scanner thinks that the bite is upper arch.
You may use tooth picks and hot glue or light cure material to make stand offs to keep arches articulated

 

[Razvan]

@cadfan - Thanks for reply... I tried several (tens I believe) scans either front down, up down with different degrees... I've switched between the lower and upper arch, but the best I got was the one in the image (which is 30 degrees front down) ... Also, I have made the bite as thin as possible...

@blue tooth - Thank you, I will try to do that and come with a feedback here... I think the bite is too high indeed and the scanner see it as upper, I thought there is like a software input where I can set the height of the occlusion key for cases like this (I guess there is not)...

 

[Razvan]

Is there a trick I can do for the occlusion key scan with the wax-up? Here are some photos of my case so you can have an overall image. Next thing I'm trying is the one with tooth picks and remove the bite.

 

[blue tooth]

When you have waxup done, why you just don't scan arches separately as waxups ?
(two separate scans) You don't need occlusion scan, you're gonna have exact copy of your wax.

 

[cos]

Hello
You have to lower your model in the scanner.
Remove the screws then fix your model with putty (rubber band etc) direct to plate, to achieve correct height.
Scan with bite.Fix firmly that the model would not fall in the scanner !

 

[cadfan]

I dont know if it works on DW picture one is the measuring field in normal angel its not high enough so either you screw down your modellholder or you make some additional scans if possible with another angle if you rotate it 30 degrees down the measuring field is moving up so its not in the best 90 degree angle to the surface but the upper jaw is in reach.

 

[Razvan]

Thanks for your answers. I have tried to scan it without the full bite, I have splited in two small bites so I can have a better scan view, yet it failed. The occlusion key scan would not take any contact points of the anagonists. Apart the fact that the bite is unusual high, could the distance (like in the photos below) block the laser scan? I doubt it because the occlusion key is well scanned, apart the antagonist points where I have none... Also, I sort of fixed the model direct in the scanner without the scanholder, but it wouldn't start scanning it (perhaps there is a sensor that won't let it scan if the scanholder - magnet - isn't placed in it's right position). I might try to unscrew the scanholder to see if it work and fix it on the plateau.

I do have the wax-ups (as I said I'm a beginner user and have little experience with DWOS),but can I scan the occlusion key with the wax up on giving the case above?! Basically, after I scan the initial arch scan, the software asks for the wax-up scan and then for the occlusion key. Should I scan the occluison key with the wax up both on the upper and lower arch?

 

[cadfan]

The measuring field stops before your upper teeth its not high enough !!! its like looking out of the window on the basement ore on the first floor you see different things so if its possible to change the view angle with the rotation table you look not straight forward but 30 degrees for example from the first floor you can see the upper jaw too but the lower a little bit less but enough.So your rotation table is not in a 90 degree angle but in 120 degrees . Its like looking straight forward ore looking 30 degrees down ore up.But in our case the measuring field is always the same but you can change the view( to the measuring field) with the rotation table.

 

[Razvan]

@cadfan... I have attached three photos with different rotations (I have tried all the angles possible) of the standholder. Please tell me if this is what you meant? Because I still couldn't get a better measuring filed. Thank you!

Non of the cases above (with many other different angles) solved my problem.

 

[cadfan]

Normaly you do this not with the table you do it with the rotation ax of the scanner but i am not sure if its possible with DW . But you can try it bottom down with the lower jaw in the fixture upper is fixed on the lower) but only during the lateral scan like the second picture. If you pull the lower jaw down you can see more of the upper but only for the lateral scan( upper and lower together lower in the fixture upper fixed on the lower)

 

[blue tooth]

Razvan, you're making a crucial mistake when trying to scan opposing arch and bite. Choose one or other. Bite key is an image of buccal surfaces, system uses it only when scanning opposing arch.
My suggestion to you would be : Scan arches separately with bite done with waxups on opposing. No bite key needed.
Software simply can't understand what you want to do. .

P.S.

You can adjust angulation of base plate both ways, like you did, or with your mouse - right click and drag, use it just to have best visibility of your preps margins.

 

[Razvan]

After a whole day trying I managed to finally get the occlusion key scanned properly. What I did is first I scanned the upper arch on the standard holder (precison and gingiva as well). Then, for the occlusion key scan, since the standard holder is unable to be lowered by default, I tried again what @cos suggested. I improvised a custom metal holder and use an articulator magnet to "stick" the model on top of it then put it inside. The original standard holder has a default height of 3.3 mm which cannot be lowered for situations like this. The custom one I made was 1 mm height (was too small after trying the scan) so I made it of 2 mm and the scanner finally managed to scan the occlusion key with the large bite and few references for readaptation. I repositioned the upper arch, then proceed with the antagonist scan - on the original holder - and reposition it as well to the occlusion key. The result in the CAD Station is this one:

The problem is now that I have encountered (again) a "bug" in the software. The model is made out of 7 bridges (3 upper; 4 lower). The pontics from the order are "Reduced Pontics", as I don't know how to use the "Advance Ponitc" with the gingiva so that it will be adapted to the gingiva (above it, and not under it) - I still don't have experience with DWOS. Here is how the software is giving me the defined anatomy (pay attention how "ugly" the pontics are adapted by the software below - check the overlay in the next image). What are my options in order to get a more realistic adaptation of the anatomy? What do I do wrong?

What an "ugly" adaptation (overlay):

And here is a bug I encounter sometimes with different bridges. The automatic anatomy projected by the DWOS has the overlay coming out of the anatomy. Transform tools would take it as anatomy, not overlay. Really annoying. Check the image below as I'm pretty sure it happened to other users before (I recomputed the bridge, re-adapt anatomy, change insertion axis, but won't work) - I have to manually clean that excess of overlay:

Any help and tips would be highly appreciate it! Thank you!

 

[blue tooth]

Well, my advice is : try to understand how system works and it's limitations. System can't adapt to you, design proposals are based on the scan.
All these abutments are ugly as hell, there is no reference points of real teeth, that's why proposals look ugly as well. Use what you did already, scan diagnostic waxup and make your life easier.

 

[Razvan]

I did scan the waxed up so they will be a real help for this case. The abutments of the bridges were customized for the paralelism and the insertion axis for the separate bridges, trying to be kept as high as possible giving the case above. Doese anyone know if I can install and purchase an Exocad software on DW (it's an open version) so I can use DW for scanning and design with Exocad as I read that Exocad is a more friendlier and easier for entry level? I do find DWOS cad design station quite difficult to get a smooth design, yet I'm a newbie. I dig the forum and saw that many users think the same about Dental Wings software.

 

[SINTEO Dental]

Hi Razvan,

unfortunately I have to admit the same like the others wrote about DWOS sw. Im an exocad user and I am totally happy about it. I also work with DWOS only for generating for bridge retentions (a special update from DWOS).
You have to fight with that:-/

 

[ceram1]

The way this is designed is too time consuming. Look at the new technique. Implant Bridge with Gingiva using DWOS Full Virtu…:

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

 

[ceram1]

You need the implant module for this.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

 

[lcmlabforum]

3 mini implants supporting a full arch with posterior cantilever a good 2x the AP spread?
I would think DW would need someone to 'over-ride' the mechanical limits to allow the
wax up like this . . .
LCM