Zirkonzahn M1

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Christina Farner

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I have a question about the M5 ZZ milling machine.. We have had ours for 5 years now and as of late we have had TONS of issues with it. It is destroying pucks (looks like its losing its tool path) and breaking burs on a regular basis. We are ordering burs every week. We have recalibrated the machine and we still cannot use the first spindle..ZZ support has been giving us different answers each time we call.. Have these things happened to anyone else?
 
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grantoz

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kristina have you had your m5 serviced this is important ive had my m5 for 7 or more years it gave me a little grief but once it was serviced its run really well also i would keep calling the service guys they always work it out but you must be persistent.
 
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Christina Farner

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Who are you using to service your mill and where are you located? We have insisted that Zirkon Zahn send a technician out to service our mill and they said they do not do that.
 
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grantoz

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Hi Kristina you can do it yourself you can buy a little kit with grease, a brush and instructions from ZZ i just didnt have the time.So i looked up cnc mill repairers there are heaps of them if you just google for your area , they will come out and do it for you it will be much quicker that way they meaning m1 m5 etc are easy to work on and if you have problems the company you choose should be able to contact ZZ thats what they did for me it was pretty straight forward .Where are you in the world and who is you reseller i might be able to help.
 
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I have a question about the M5 ZZ milling machine.. We have had ours for 5 years now and as of late we have had TONS of issues with it. It is destroying pucks (looks like its losing its tool path) and breaking burs on a regular basis. We are ordering burs every week. We have recalibrated the machine and we still cannot use the first spindle..ZZ support has been giving us different answers each time we call.. Have these things happened to anyone else?


I remember they have a 180 pages manual for the M 5 its no rocket engineering maybe you have sometimes disconnections or the spindel or the stepper motor is broken.
 
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Labwa

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it sounds like something is slipping. Maybe a gear or belt. Open it up and check those.
 
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grantoz

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get it serviced its much quicker and you will save a lot on burs and pucks let the pros fix it.and keep contacting ZZ you must be persistent.
 
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This is a review of ZirkonZahn, and in particular their M1 milling machine. I've been meaning to put this up for a couple years now, because there is literally no consumer information out there on the web and it's impossible for anyone to make an informed decision when considering one of these. We have a prosthodontic office with a lab, and hopefully this helps some people. Before I get into all the cons, I will list some pros. The modeling software, although not intuitive, is excellent. The quality of the ZZ zirconia is excellent. The quality of the milling is excellent...when everything is working. Now onto the cons. First and foremost, you can only mill ZZ zirconia- this alone should be enough of a reason for no one to consider buying one of these. In 2021, paying $400+ for a puck of zirconia is a like a tax on stupidity. The quality of the milling burs is inferior to every other company we've purchased from. The ZZ burs wear out the fastest and will chip your restorations to hell after less than 100 units. Ironically, their burs are also the most expensive. Without getting into a multitude of specifics- I could go on a diatribe on this subject- the mill is abound with technical problems. Some are minor and some are major, but all have been incredibly frustrating. The technical support team are hands down some of the nicest people you will ever have the pleasure of speaking with, and for this I commend them. However, it is often the case that the support, pleasant as they may be, don't know the technical solutions you seek. Suffice it to say that I have written my own trouble shooting manual for my technicians, which is the culmination of more trial and error than anything gleaned from technical support. Ultimately, given the price, I've been beyond disappointed and would never buy another ZZ mill or recommend one. I purchased another VHF mill, which as others have noted, is an excellent machine and completely superior unit.
 
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everyone sells zz size pucks, so why are you locked in to their pucks?
 
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cadguru11

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everyone sells zz size pucks, so why are you locked in to their pucks?
That’s a great question. The answer is that they choose not to unlock their cam software so you have to buy their exorbitantly priced zirconia. I brought this up before purchasing just to be on the safe side and was told I could use any zirconia, but apparently that’s not the case. My understanding is that some of the older mills were unlocked. I’ve never got a clear cut answer from them. The problem is that it’s not a true open system. You can save stl files from their cad software for export to another mill and cam software, but can only mill their zirconia with their cam software and milling machines.
 
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That seems crazy but not unbelievable.. My amann system was 'locked' but I was still able to use sagemax without a problem.. @grantoz is that your experience also, are you locked into zz pucks?
 
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cadguru11

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The cam software requires a serial number to register any zirconia or titanium puck, and considering how you have to you use their cam software for their mills, you’re screwed. Resin materials are unlocked, so at least pmma, burnout, even PEEK, doesn’t have to be zz. I’d love to hear from someone with a zz mill that isn’t locked. It’s been such a racket that it’s the reason I’m trying to get this info out there- buyer beware.
 
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grantoz

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no you are not locked into only using ZZ blocks. the thing is you can either have a locked or an unlocked system. the difference is the price of the system if you have a Zirkonzahn only system its less expensive. If you want an unlocked system then you pay more. i dont find the blocks from ZZ that badly priced for the quality that you get .I have tried many others and for a while a few years back i used a less expensive US brand but it wasnt worth it for the stuffin around to make it look and fit good.
 
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cadguru11

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no you are not locked into only using ZZ blocks. the thing is you can either have a locked or an unlocked system. the difference is the price of the system if you have a Zirkonzahn only system its less expensive. If you want an unlocked system then you pay more. i dont find the blocks from ZZ that badly priced for the quality that you get .I have tried many others and for a while a few years back i used a less expensive US brand but it wasnt worth it for the stuffin around to make it look and fit good.
That doesn’t apply to systems they sell to doctors, i.e. prosthodontists with dental labs in their office. That’s the heart of the issue- they do it because they can. I paid six figures for my zz heavy wet setup with every module and feature available- cost wasn’t an issue. Everyone’s experience may differ, but I have milled other pucks- by ‘sacrificing’ a serial number- and found the quality to be equivalent at a fraction of the cost. What other zirconia companies sell 25mm pucks for over $500? I’m not aware any that want to stay in business. I know at least a couple prosthodontists will read these threads and pass on zz mills. Fast forward a few years and the quality of zirconia will be even better, cost less, and leave me wondering why zz gets away with this disreputable business practice even more.
 
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grantoz

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maybe you should pass on your views to Zirkonzahn directly .
 
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cadguru11

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That approach has been long since abandoned- it was a resounding, ‘no can do.’
 
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CWilliams

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That doesn’t apply to systems they sell to doctors, i.e. prosthodontists with dental labs in their office. That’s the heart of the issue- they do it because they can. I paid six figures for my zz heavy wet setup with every module and feature available- cost wasn’t an issue. Everyone’s experience may differ, but I have milled other pucks- by ‘sacrificing’ a serial number- and found the quality to be equivalent at a fraction of the cost. What other zirconia companies sell 25mm pucks for over $500? I’m not aware any that want to stay in business. I know at least a couple prosthodontists will read these threads and pass on zz mills. Fast forward a few years and the quality of zirconia will be even better, cost less, and leave me wondering why zz gets away with this disreputable business practice even more.
I've never had an issue with my M4.. I maintain weekly cleaning and bi weekly calibration- including the chuck, plus cleanings between wet and dry. Yes I'm sure burs will chip restorations if you ignore the fact they're at 0% and the machine is telling you to replace them- I've never had an issue with chipping- is your tech using enough support spacer/ nesting appropriately to avoid undercuts/ too extreme of mill degrees?

It's personal preference working within one line, there is no guessing game if it's the material/ machine/ liquid stains, if something goes wrong there's one direction to point the finger. If it ain't broke don't fix it; the restorations are beautiful, life like, fit like a glove and the system is seamless. Prior we were working with CEREC and it was fubar; trying to pin down support with what the issue was, was an absolute circus. Call me jaded, but the risk of dealing with another **** support team isn't worth my time of production. Quite frankly, I don't want to talk to my reps and support- no comms is good comms IMO.

Not sure where you are located in the world, but your pricing is exaggerated. The only disc on my price sheet that is over $500 (US) is the 30mm- if you're in house, $500 for I'm sure a full arch hybrid is steal... if cost isn't an issue.

As for wanting an open system, you should probably contact your distributor, pay the up price and be done with it. I know guys who have an open system, but stay within the system bc of quality.

My two cents.
 
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cadguru11

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The mill is maintained exactly as you described- this is not the source of the problem. I'm the kind that reads every manual for equipment. While a good suggestion, extreme tool paths are also not the problem. The issues have been of the what I'd call defective parts variety. It's been a long time since I worked with CEREC, but the fit was very good, even with the old zirconia we'd use for copings to stack. Without going off on a tangent, these two systems are like apples and oranges, but that doesn't mean that CEREC is bad at what it is meant for- single units and short span bridges. Regarding value, which is the true subject here, given the technicians' time involved- especially in a full arch- the cost just for the zirconia is significant. Pricing in the US is $468 for 25mm, $410 for 20, $360 for 16, so after tax you're over $500 for 25mm-I'm not here to exaggerate or spin this. We do a lot of zirconia, and the burs I'm using now get around 600 units- food for thought the next time you change when they hit 0%. The thing I keep in focus on the full arch zirconia subject is that the cad/cam labs will keep getting bigger, better, and cheaper, and the price of full arch zirconia production, i.e just to mill, green state finish, sinter, and cut and polish, will keep getting lower- this is inevitable. So, if I could send an STL file out and get a 12 unit bridge back ready to stain and glaze for less than what I could mill it out myself, then it's at least something to think about. There's a huge paradigm shift going on regarding production quality throughout the world, and let's suffice it to say that those burs I'm using that are milling 600 units are made in China and cost about 20% what a ZZ bur does. Regarding their zirconia- I've been there and seen the same. I agree completely with 'no comms is good comms' with any reps or support though! The lab business has always been tough, but don't be surprised when ZZ quality restorations are $15/unit or less out of Asia.
 
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I wish I could help, I know if I was paying over $300 for a puck Id either be on to a new system or very unprofitable. Thats 3x what I pay for sagemax.. However $5 or $15 to mill a crown isnt going to break the bank, and it easy to make up on your price list. If that were the only issue you had, but it sounds like it isnt..
 

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