Zirconia pucks

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Martin Bubez

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We in the lab have been using for a good few years the white Argen zirconia and their pre-sinter staining kit.
Their has been many a dispute over colour of the full contour zirconia after sintering... Too grey, too bright, too this, too that, we should more of this and less of that... I could go on. My point is the massive inconsistencies in pre-sinter staining.
I'm pitching for a change to the boss...
After watching a webinar with Jack Marrano, I asked about pre-sinter staining and he said avoid it and for the reasons exactly why we have experienced. Inconsistency.
So, I have a few questions as we mill in the lab.
We usually stock ZHT white in 14, 18 and 25mm. We are mainly an implant lab.
If we were to move to pre-shaded zirconia pucks do you guys have literally A-D pucks all in your stock in varying heights?
Do you use multi layered or single shaded? Can you still get a good depth of colour definition from cervical to incisal with the single shaded?
Are there any differences in strength between the multi-layered and single shaded? (some people can be very touchy on the subject of strength of materials)

So my pitch is, we go to shaded zirconia pucks (single or multi-layered)
It'll save us money and importantly, time not having to buy and use the pre-sinter stains... And most importantly consistency in post sinter shades, it'll just be up to us to get a vital, well shaded crown after sinter using our stain kits.
I just need to know what stock to hold.

Many thanks for all your help guys.
If anyone wants to post some photos here of their FCZ, I'd like to see them.
 
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FASTFNGR

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We in the lab have been using for a good few years the white Argen zirconia and their pre-sinter staining kit.
Their has been many a dispute over colour of the full contour zirconia after sintering... Too grey, too bright, too this, too that, we should more of this and less of that... I could go on. My point is the massive inconsistencies in pre-sinter staining.
I'm pitching for a change to the boss...
After watching a webinar with Jack Marrano, I asked about pre-sinter staining and he said avoid it and for the reasons exactly why we have experienced. Inconsistency.
So, I have a few questions as we mill in the lab.
We usually stock ZHT white in 14, 18 and 25mm. We are mainly an implant lab.
If we were to move to pre-shaded zirconia pucks do you guys have literally A-D pucks all in your stock in varying heights?
Do you use multi layered or single shaded? Can you still get a good depth of colour definition from cervical to incisal with the single shaded?
Are there any differences in strength between the multi-layered and single shaded? (some people can be very touchy on the subject of strength of materials)

So my pitch is, we go to shaded zirconia pucks (single or multi-layered)
It'll save us money and importantly, time not having to buy and use the pre-sinter stains... And most importantly consistency in post sinter shades, it'll just be up to us to get a vital, well shaded crown after sinter using our stain kits.
I just need to know what stock to hold.

Many thanks for all your help guys.
If anyone wants to post some photos here of their FCZ, I'd like to see them.
I have tried more than 10 different brands and finally we decided on Pritident multiplayer. 7 pucks covers the whole range of shade with the 18mm size. Anterior 650mp or posterior 1150mp fire at the same 1450c temp. We use some LV to bring down the Pontic value on large bridge and that works.
 
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Bryce D

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Had same issues with white, pre shaded gives a consistent shade especially on larrge multi unit cases . I stock white and the most common pre shaded pucks.
 
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Martin Bubez

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Are you using multilayer zirconia or standard shade?
If you use standard shade do manage to get good incisal colour? My fear is them looking a little flat and lifeless without incisal pre colour or multilayer


Had same issues with white, pre shaded gives a consistent shade especially on larrge multi unit cases . I stock white and the most common pre shaded pucks.
Had same issues with white, pre shaded gives a consistent shade especially on larrge multi unit cases . I stock white and the most common pre shaded pucks.
 
Contraluz

Contraluz

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We in the lab have been using for a good few years the white Argen zirconia and their pre-sinter staining kit.
Their has been many a dispute over colour of the full contour zirconia after sintering... Too grey, too bright, too this, too that, we should more of this and less of that... I could go on. My point is the massive inconsistencies in pre-sinter staining.
I'm pitching for a change to the boss...
After watching a webinar with Jack Marrano, I asked about pre-sinter staining and he said avoid it and for the reasons exactly why we have experienced. Inconsistency.
So, I have a few questions as we mill in the lab.
We usually stock ZHT white in 14, 18 and 25mm. We are mainly an implant lab.
If we were to move to pre-shaded zirconia pucks do you guys have literally A-D pucks all in your stock in varying heights?
Do you use multi layered or single shaded? Can you still get a good depth of colour definition from cervical to incisal with the single shaded?
Are there any differences in strength between the multi-layered and single shaded? (some people can be very touchy on the subject of strength of materials)

So my pitch is, we go to shaded zirconia pucks (single or multi-layered)
It'll save us money and importantly, time not having to buy and use the pre-sinter stains... And most importantly consistency in post sinter shades, it'll just be up to us to get a vital, well shaded crown after sinter using our stain kits.
I just need to know what stock to hold.

Many thanks for all your help guys.
If anyone wants to post some photos here of their FCZ, I'd like to see them.
If you are with Argen, already, try their multilayered pucks! Wide range of shades and predictable outcome.

I myself use Ivoclar's Multi pucks and like the outcome. Other option I like, especially for bigger bridges, Whitepeakes.
 
Car 54

Car 54

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So, you were the one who asked that question :)

He did mention that he mainly used the HT+ A1, A2 LT on his bigger cases, as there is enough of a contrast once you stain the gingival. If we were to pre sinter contour like he did, may overcome any lack of inc look by how well the morphology looked? Or just micro layer the Inc 1/3rd, especially on the anterior, smaller 1-4 unit cases?

I know we like to have control of our own milling, but could you stock the more common shades and send the lesser used shades out?

I still dip 75% of my units (Beyond Plus) but am trying to move to emax MT multi layer, and layering (for now) dipped HT+ and the LTs.
 
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Martin Bubez

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Yes, it was me... Fame at last... Or maybe infamy.

I love the idea of pre-sinter contouring. It's another tricky one though as with pre-sinter colouring. Experimentation, I think is needed. Surface texture and contour is probably the most challenging aspect of making a crown look like like.

I don't see much sense in sending out work when we have the full capacity in the lab to do the work.
Hearing that you still dip 75% of your units gives me food for thought, as you say, stock the most common shades of pucks and dip the rest.


So, you were the one who asked that question :)

He did mention that he mainly used the HT+ A1, A2 LT on his bigger cases, as there is enough of a contrast once you stain the gingival. If we were to pre sinter contour like he did, may overcome any lack of inc look by how well the morphology looked? Or just micro layer the Inc 1/3rd, especially on the anterior, smaller 1-4 unit cases?

I know we like to have control of our own milling, but could you stock the more common shades and send the lesser used shades out?

I still dip 75% of my units (Beyond Plus) but am trying to move to emax MT multi layer, and layering (for now) dipped HT+ and the LTs.
 
Car 54

Car 54

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.......
Hearing that you still dip 75% of your units gives me food for thought, as you say, stock the most common shades of pucks and dip the rest.

But you also need to realize that I'm working with a 4 axis mill, so pre coloring is more needful in not being able to utilize a 5 axis mill for properly positioning gradient singles and bridges in the puck. So out of that necessity, I really worked on getting the colors down with Origin and Beyond using their liquids.

I'm hoping to buy a 5 axis mill in the next month or two, to help in not having to do so much dipping. Then to use more multi layer, gradient zirconias from Ivoclar and Argen. Buying 2 size disks of the more common shades and maybe sending the others to Argen to mill. It's still (original post) a good question on your part, though.
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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might be worthwhile putting together a zirconia thread comparing some options. there are a lot of options out there and they keep getting better every year!
also type of zirconia matters. are you looking for high str? high trans? multilayer looks beautiful in most cases and the time savings is well worth the cost of stocking a few more pucks. especially in the long run. went through the same considerations a couple of years ago and i am absolutely thrilled i pulled the trigger on stocking some ML preshaded pucks. still carry some unshaded for tricky cases and such, but generally most thats milled is preshaded ML
 
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Martin Bubez

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We're pretty set on the argen, we've had great results just not always the consistency with pre-sinter colouring, hence looking at the multi layer pucks.
We work mainly on implants on ti base so for the posterior our guys are hot on it being "indestructible".
The multilayer zirconia might not be the best in strength for the posterior for our needs but just wanted advice on anterior fcz with argen specifically and how people go about it


might be worthwhile putting together a zirconia thread comparing some options. there are a lot of options out there and they keep getting better every year!
also type of zirconia matters. are you looking for high str? high trans? multilayer looks beautiful in most cases and the time savings is well worth the cost of stocking a few more pucks. especially in the long run. went through the same considerations a couple of years ago and i am absolutely thrilled i pulled the trigger on stocking some ML preshaded pucks. still carry some unshaded for tricky cases and such, but generally most thats milled is preshaded ML
 

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