Which porcelain system to buy?

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dental1975

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I'm a new one man lab and i want to know what you think is a good all around porcelain system to use? i have used Ceramco, Vita ,Empress and Creation in the past. Thanks for the help
 
JeffT

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If your doing a lot of 3D shades maybe VM13 /9 will be better for you. In my instance we do mainly classic shades so If I was in the market for a new kit for PFM I would be looking at an ivoclar product like IPS Inline or d.sign. I currently use Duceram Kiss (sorry MMR) and love its shade reproduction accuracy. Noritake gets a good rap also.

cheers, Jeff
 
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There are many good porcelains to choose from, please give more info about yourself and what your looking for in a porcelain...... Multi layered buildups.... build -grind and glaze and want a good shade.....Do you do a lot of large cases, anteriors or mostly single posteriors.......Do you need or want a matching zirconia porcelain now, or in the near future.
You can build a 6 unit anterior with Noritake, Avante, Ceramco,and Halo with very little tearing........ Different story with Dsign, Vita 900-13, Creation and many other porcelains as an example.......with Creation being the least technique sensitive of these last five.
GC Initial is a good porcelain with great shades and many powders to choose from that less technique than many porcelains such a dsign, creation and vita.

If you need 3D shades, your limited to any Vita porcelain, ceramco, avante OR using a conversion chart. I use VM13 with my 3D, shades are right on the money, no staining needed.
Rob here on DLN has a great conversion chart for dsign, and GC has a really great conversion chart......but conversions are conversions, and all porcelains have charts to attempt at the 3d shade...
 
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dental1975

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porcelain

Well i am literally putting my lab together now. So i am expecting vast majority posterior work until i get my name out there. I have 10 years exp. but my first venture on my own. I have used Creation and Ceramco liked Creation but not Ceramco.
 
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2thbob

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Which ceramco didnt you like? Creation, duceram kiss and finesse all look and behave nearly the same. Finesse is discontinued this year. Like to wax and press, or stack? Ive been selling a new style, and its going over GREAT... electroformed copings, pressed 90% e.max core and finished with ceram. Absolutely the bomb. Dr.s like the bright gold, maskes bad stump colors, dont need to build-up support in the metal, ceram is beautiful and easy.
 
TheLabGuy

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Which ceramco didnt you like? Creation, duceram kiss and finesse all look and behave nearly the same. Finesse is discontinued this year. Like to wax and press, or stack? Ive been selling a new style, and its going over GREAT... electroformed copings, pressed 90% e.max core and finished with ceram. Absolutely the bomb. Dr.s like the bright gold, maskes bad stump colors, dont need to build-up support in the metal, ceram is beautiful and easy.

Are you saying you are pressing e.max over your electroformed copings?
 
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dental1975

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Ceramco 3 didnt handle well,porous non vital looking and the shades were always light. i like to wax full contour.
 
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2thbob

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To 'TheLabGuy'...Opaque fired on electroformed gold copings to mask AND give controlled brightness (dont have to 'guess' a lighter ingot to achieve proper value),and wax to about 90% contour and press. Finish the crown the fun way...stack enamel or some dentin as needed. Theyre fun, for me atleast alittle quicker, and every bit as nice as all ceramic. Gold doesnt need to be full coverage either; press margins, etc.
 
TheLabGuy

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To 'TheLabGuy'...Opaque fired on electroformed gold copings to mask AND give controlled brightness (dont have to 'guess' a lighter ingot to achieve proper value),and wax to about 90% contour and press. Finish the crown the fun way...stack enamel or some dentin as needed. Theyre fun, for me atleast alittle quicker, and every bit as nice as all ceramic. Gold doesnt need to be full coverage either; press margins, etc.

If you're using "E.MAX" as a press to metal as you just described, when it fails, don't be surprised if you don't get sued because the manufacturer (Ivoclar) strongly suggests from doing this with any E.max system. The only press-over E.max system on the market is E.max ZirPress which is for zirconium frameworks, not metal. I know there are other manufactures out there that do have some pressables over metal, maybe that's what you are using, not specifically E.max?
 
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2thbob

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Lad Dude...Im pressing e.Max lithium disilicate, and Im doing it according to Ivoclars exact instructions. I use the Lt ingots. The zirpress ingots are e.max in name only. Theyre NOT the strong lithium disilicate. For reference, check page #52 in the e.max instructions book. Strong & Beautiful. Just like me.
 
TheLabGuy

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Lad Dude...Im pressing e.Max lithium disilicate, and Im doing it according to Ivoclars exact instructions. I use the Lt ingots. The zirpress ingots are e.max in name only. Theyre NOT the strong lithium disilicate. For reference, check page #52 in the e.max instructions book. Strong & Beautiful. Just like me.

Okay, did you not just state you were pressing E.max over electroformed gold copings?????????????

Page 52 in my book shows a 3 unit bridge.......what color book are you talking about because I have all the books (green, yellow, blue, orange) and none of them show E.max pressing on a metal coping. Hence why I stated you might want to clarify your statements.
 
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2thbob

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Again, to LabGuy- Green book. e.Max Press, instructions for use. Page 52, "pressing over electroplated frameworks". Works great. I just called to verify with Ivoclar that I wasnt doing somthing from an outdated piece of literature that they no longer encourage.. still current, and they, for their studies, used the equiptment from Gramm (1-800-752-8846).
 
TheLabGuy

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If there is another green book out there that states this, I'd love to see it, because this is what mine looks like and doesn't say anything about pressing on metal copings at all.
awww.patriotdentallab.com_images_IMG_1405.JPG

awww.patriotdentallab.com_images_IMG_1406.JPG

awww.patriotdentallab.com_images_IMG_1407.JPG


In addition, when did you call, because I thought Ivoclar closed at 5pm and my previous message was at 5:35 p.m. Maybe I'm missing something? someone is, and it's not the first time I missed something so what's the story?
awww.patriotdentallab.com_images_IMG_1405.JPG awww.patriotdentallab.com_images_IMG_1406.JPG awww.patriotdentallab.com_images_IMG_1407.JPG
 
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2thbob

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Rob..Youve got an old book. The new one looks almost the same, but the picture on the cover shows 5 ingots...a 'HT A1' being the new one. My Ivoclar rep has visited with me as late as 9:00~9:30 or so.
 
TheLabGuy

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Wow, that's friggin awesome. I don't think my Ivoclar rep exists after 5pm....lol. Now in your new book (I'll order it tomorrow) on page 52, what does it say about pressing on metal copings? Strictly electroformed copings only or all metal copings? and does it give a name to a specific manufacturer of electroformed copings? When did this new book come out, how long have you had it?
 
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2thbob

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The instructions are almost none. They say press-over electroplated frameworks, but I think more correctly they mean electroformed. Rep says they used the unit from gramm. Identical results (Im told) to what youd get using Wielands AGC micro. < they advertise using their electrolyte with the Gramm, Heraeus' Preziano IQ (cant find info),and Degudents Solaris...not available in the U.S.A. Im not sure if this technique works with cast frames, they dont say so, but if your alloy had the same cte as pure gold ??? Ivoclar has some paste opaques...But after you fire the coping and conditioner, re-verify the fit on the die before you opaque just to make sure you didnt squeeze it and distort, or youll pop some opaque when you seat it to wax. .2mm is stiff enough, but Ive tried to cut it short and save on the gold and just have essentially a flash-foil thin coping and thats asking for it.
 
TheLabGuy

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Interesting.........if it works for electroplated frameworks, whose to say it wouldn't work for something like Captek. I'll have to find out what they are saying you can press-too per CTE and such.........who would of thunk it....:) Thanks Bob
 
sixonice

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Interesting.........if it works for electroplated frameworks, whose to say it wouldn't work for something like Captek. I'll have to find out what they are saying you can press-too per CTE and such.........who would of thunk it....:) Thanks Bob

In the old e.max Press (green) instructions for use book (BEFORE they added the HT ingot on the cover),the e.max press over electroformed copings for single units only, is on page 58. I can tell you it WILL NOT work with Captek - incompatible CTE. You can press over electroplated only, such as the Wieland and Gramm systems WILL work. From what I have heard, this technique is not very popular and the e.max opaques will be phased out when they are depleted. With the strength and esthetics of e.max on it's own, I can certainly understand why this option did not catch on.
Also, the pressing over zirconia technique is in the orange manual, called Zirpress. Finally, the Ivoclar corporate office is open until 7PM EST because I have placed orders up until 6:30 EST and gotten my stuff the next day.
 
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protek25

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I might be getting cold feet on using emax for this case I've got. It is the front 8 upper and lower.....uppers are veneers, and lowers are full coverage. Shade will be B1. No issues with the stump shades......If I go with this in emax, I'm thinking LT ingots, based on what I'm seeing here. I would do the lowers full contour, and slight cut back on the uppers.
The thing I'm worried about is the time factor....As usual, I don't have tons of time to do this case, and experimenting is ok, but time consuming. I'm a little worried about all the talk of the sensitivity everyone is talking about with pressing this stuff. I've pressed Finess, Avanti, a special blend that I get from DenMat, and I haven't had a single problem with my furnace, which is a FinessPress. It has a built in program for Finess which is right on the money, so I'm thinking that it is pretty good as far as temp calibrations, but I'm not sure how it will go with the emax.
Ceramco tech gave me this schedule

Base temp 700 Cel/1292 far.
Rate of climb 50deg cel/min/88 deg/min far.
High temp for small ring 925
Hold 15min
Press time 4.5 to 5 min
4.25 bar air pressure, which is the "standard" for this furnace.
What do you think, anybody......
I also wonder about whether or not I can use the disposable plungers. Is the Emax ingot the standard size? Can I use my reusable investment pressing rings? Would you put the investment under pressure while setting up, as I do for all my other investing?
How about Finess compared to Emax for looks? Or Avanti. Would any of you have gone on such a large case for a first time with Emax, considering what you Know?
I'm on a schedule....the case is on the model bench!!!! ???
 
CRWNMKR

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who is this "LAB GUY" anyway?
 
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