What features would you like in a burnout oven?

dfshorn1

dfshorn1

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Muffle theory 101

Mark,
I understand exactly your concerns. I have had this conversation countless times over the years and would like to mention a few things about how I can make such a claim, at least for porcelain muffles. I believe the same can be achieved for burnout ovens as well. I am not sure of the need versus the cost.

First, radiant energy is just that, an energy. It knows no specific level or intensity, it IS. It is just there. When measuring radiant energy, it is the measuring device's output that gets interpretted, ultimately, as temperature, at that one physical point. A muffle's heat radiation pattern which produces a temperature of 1600 F at the thermocouple and a specific point "A" when new will not vary after years of service to 1550F at point "A" while the thermocouple point still remains at 1600 F. In short, the watt loading per inch varies very little to none of the years as to be non-consequential to the radiant energy produced over the whole length of the element. That asssumes that your heating plates have not moved, cracked or the wires popped out and your insulations is still in good shape. With all physical things being equal, it is not the radiator that changes but the measuring device, the thermocouple and associated electronics that have changed. So when you see a change in the performance of your burnout oven it is most probably the slow but steady changes to the "K" type thermocouple that is the culprit. The electronics gets into more complicated stacking errors associated with tolorence changes due to ambient operating temperatures and age derating. These 2 factors combined can create some interesting calibration swings as the oven ages with no additional help from the muffle itself.

In the porcelain/ pressing furnaces, these factors have been greatly minimized as to make calibration unnecessary. I have units in service now for over 2 years and when checked, have not varied 1 degree from when manufactured. I check temperatures at various place within the muffle.

Let me know if this helps you in understanding the variables.

Daniel
 
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Mark Jackson

Mark Jackson

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Mark,
That asssumes that your heating plates have not moved, cracked or the wires popped out and your insulations is still in good shape. With all physical things being equal, it is not the radiator that changes but the measuring device, the thermocouple and associated electronics that have changed. So when you see a change in the performance of your burnout oven it is most probably the slow but steady changes to the "K" type thermocouple that is the culprit.

I understand. I have found that over time, we just put a lot of hard miles on these furnaces, and we have to keep raising the temp setting to get the actual temp right. We put a new muffle in one of our Vulcans just last week for this reason. We should be able to calibrate occasionally to compensate for wear and tear. In my opinion anyway...I'm funny that way.
 
doug

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So Daniel, If what you said is correct, you should be looking to replace the temperature sensing device before the muffle. but eventually the muffle will need to be replaced/repaired, right? That means, to me, that if you raise the temp in the furnace to compensate for a wearing heat sensor, your are creating a problem that will get increasingly worse. That explains why all of us still use the "It looks like it's firing properly now" method to make sure we have it right for our porcelain. I will say that my Whipmix furnaces are extremely accurate and stable.
 
araucaria

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Eureka moment perhaps - Is it possible to have a card-reader incorporated in the display/control board ? similar to photo printers.
Each manufacturer of investment could supply programmes on a memory card/device or that can be loaded onto a memory card/device, this will be read by the oven - no need for so many pre-programmed cycles.
Shove in the card, select desired programme, fire away - simple (surely?)
(i'll let you know where to send my cheque in due course):D
 
Al.

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4 stages? I never heard of anybody using that.

For large rings 0 to 600 F hold, to 1200 hold, to 1600 hold. All at 10 degree per minute increase.

I prefer to be able to program the delay setting for when I want the cycle to be finished rather than when I want it to start.

Another thing to consider for programing the delay start is weather to use military time or regular time with AM and PM settings.
The vulcans use military time and it is a bit of a pain to figure the time because the only time I use military tme it is when I reset or confirm the correct time after power outages.

One thing I hate but have gotten used to is the vulcans have a lip on the edge of the ceramic tray that sits on the floor or bottom.
I used to use a Jelenko that did not have this. When I first started using the Vulcan I would bump that lip with the rings when I pulled them out .
One time pulling a ring out and with an oven full of 9 rings I bumped that lip hard and knocked 2 rings out of the oven and on the floor at 1600 degrees.

I always raise the rings up over it now by habit but that something that could be removed for safety.
 
jimi

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i always replace the thermocouple with the heating coils. If you find yourself doubting the actual temperature and are raising the temp to compensate, you can avoid the guesswork by making a once in a lifetime investment in a laser thermometer. They are a lot of fun at football games too.
 
jimi

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stainless is a first priority for me. Also, isnt it difficult to find large cavity electric burnout furnaces? Most of the large cavity furnace suitable for chrome castings are gas, why is that?
 
araucaria

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stainless is a first priority for me. Also, isnt it difficult to find large cavity electric burnout furnaces? Most of the large cavity furnace suitable for chrome castings are gas, why is that?


There are some great furnaces available from suppliers to Ceramic/Pottery craft workers, usually great value too. Go seek.
 
jimi

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There are some great furnaces available from suppliers to Ceramic/Pottery craft workers, usually great value too. Go seek.

exactly what i am using now. Oh, and it is my trade secret, so don't tell the other labs in my city that i do it.

...and i can bake my own coffee mug/tea cup. Come for tea and cookies.
 
dfshorn1

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Mark,
There is not one right way in this. We do with what works to get one less monkey off our backs while trying to run a business and all that entails. But purely from an intellectual point of view, I can assume then that you do not buy into the concept that a burn out oven, or even a porcelain/ pressing furnace, can be manufactured in a manner that eliminates the need to calibrate?

Doug,
What I have seen with burn out ovens over the years is the thermocouple will fail far more quickly then the heating elements will. The metals in a "K" type thermocouple are very reactive to the gases. They scale up and corrode in the form of nitride crystals in and around the weld of the two metals causing micro cracks. This contamination slowly changes the voltage curve of the thermocouple and it is always down. Meaning that the thermocouple reads 1600F when the actual temperature at the thermocouple is lower. This drift can and should be calibrated out. But as the thermocouple continues on its inevitable doom, the actual temperature needed to give a display of 1600F will get lower and lower. I would not elect to change plates if the only physical change is that the wire has popped out at the bending points. However, the insulation is very important to how hard your oven will have to work to reach and maintain temp. I think your "It looks like it's firing properly now" observation is correct. But in porcelain furnaces, I believe that there are more variables and therefore more complicated. I am glad that you are happy with your WhipMixs. I am not a believer in quartz muffles, never have been. Please give my article, "The Myth of Quartz" a read at Home (ibexdental.com)
Let me know what you think.

Al,
Thank you for your comments, Jelenko, Ney and Jelrus all made 4 stage burnout ovens in the late 80's and 90's. I have had several people tell me 3 stages and I will be happy to settle with 20 programs at 3 stages each. Military time, or european, are all numbers and therefore the code to use the Real Time Clocks in any device is made easier. That is the main reason for not using am and pm. It requires a lot more code.
My floor trays do not have a lip to contend with.

Jimi,
I am prototyping a stainless model. I think ERC had the right idea there. As far a large cavity electric, it is more economical to heat larger cavities to the these temps with gas than electric. That is my theory anyway.

And araucaria has got a good point, there are great burn out ovens in the jewelery and pottery fields.

Again, thanks everyone for your comments.

Daniel
 
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Mark Jackson

Mark Jackson

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Mark,
There is not one right way in this. We do with what works to get one less monkey off our backs while trying to run a business and all that entails. But purely from an intellectual point of view, I can assume then that you do not buy into the concept that a burn out oven, or even a porcelain/ pressing furnace, can be manufactured in a manner that eliminates the need to calibrate?

Our FDA GMP's require any piece of equipment that is used to process FDA 510k materials (i.e. those materials which will end up in the patients mouth) be properly maintained and calibrated. Improperly calibrated equipment can cause failures.

Burn out furnaces for casting patterns are not 510k critical, but burnout furnaces used to prepare a framework to receive a pressed ceramic overlay are performing a different function. I want them working right.
 
Al.

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Burn out furnaces for casting patterns are not 510k critical, but burnout furnaces used to prepare a framework to receive a pressed ceramic overlay are performing a different function. I want them working right.

You think so? I would argue it isnt because you are transfering it from there to the pressing furnace and the pressing furnace is the one critical.
 
Mark Jackson

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You think so? I would argue it isnt because you are transfering it from there to the pressing furnace and the pressing furnace is the one critical.

Improper burnout will leave residual carbon. Problems with temperatures and rates of climb can induce stress and griffith flaws into an invested zirconia framework. Proper wax elimination is considered part of the conditioning process prior to pressing. You are cooking and processing a 510k material in that oven. Both steps are 510k critical.
 
D

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Hello all:

I am designing a burnout oven to complement our porcelain and pressing furnaces, and I would like your prespective on burnout ovens. I have ideas that will improve the performance of the oven- reducing ring cracking, improving heat distribution, etc., but I would like to have input from you, the people who ultimately use the machines! (I have serviced burnout ovens for years and so I am familiar with pretty much every burnout oven out there; however, my understanding of them is from a technical point of view, and I would like to hear from those who use them in their work!).

So, what comments do you have about the burnout oven you use? Are you happy with the performance it gives you, or is there room for improvement?

Also, are there any features that you think would be great to see on a burnout oven and that would benefit you but aren't on available models?

Thank you for any input you have to offer!
Kind regards,

Dan Serrago
IBEX Dental Technologies
Is there a chance of a WiFi oven that an app could monitor time and temps? Also turn on or off remotely?

David W.
 
CatamountRob

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Is there a chance of a WiFi oven that an app could monitor time and temps? Also turn on or off remotely?

David W.
This is a 10 year old thread and I don’t think the Ibex guy has been around in a while.
 
Affinity

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Yeah scrolling through this.. wow. Glory days :confused: Whats happened to our industry?
 
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