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flossich

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Hey y'all.

I am a dentist in a 4 doc group practice. Heavy bread and butter dentistry. We are wanting to purchase an in house mill that can provide same day crowns and mill dentures. More heavily zirconium, rare occasion emax, and lots of removable. We are being advised to purchase planmeca 60s. Ivoclar came to our office to show off their dual shade pucks ivotion. Any recommendations would be much appreciated. Are dual pucks from ivoclar worth the squeeze? Will other brands becoming out with dual pucks such as ivotion? Budget is not so much of a concern, but it is taken into consideration. Thanks in advance!!
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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Hey y'all.

I am a dentist in a 4 doc group practice. Heavy bread and butter dentistry. We are wanting to purchase an in house mill that can provide same day crowns and mill dentures. More heavily zirconium, rare occasion emax, and lots of removable. We are being advised to purchase planmeca 60s. Ivoclar came to our office to show off their dual shade pucks ivotion. Any recommendations would be much appreciated. Are dual pucks from ivoclar worth the squeeze? Will other brands becoming out with dual pucks such as ivotion? Budget is not so much of a concern, but it is taken into consideration. Thanks in advance!!
do you have a tech lined up for running these machines? design/nest/mill/sinter/cure/stain/glaze/polish/etc... there is a whole lot more that goes into this than just plug in a mill in order to properly answer your question
 
CoolHandLuke

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Hey y'all.

I am a dentist in a 4 doc group practice. Heavy bread and butter dentistry. We are wanting to purchase an in house mill that can provide same day crowns and mill dentures. More heavily zirconium, rare occasion emax, and lots of removable. We are being advised to purchase planmeca 60s. Ivoclar came to our office to show off their dual shade pucks ivotion. Any recommendations would be much appreciated. Are dual pucks from ivoclar worth the squeeze? Will other brands becoming out with dual pucks such as ivotion? Budget is not so much of a concern, but it is taken into consideration. Thanks in advance!!
where are you located, and why not check out the Versamill lineup from Axsys?

axsysdental.com
 
RCKSTR

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Of course not @sidesh0wb0b, guranteed they will train an assistant to do all that, can't be that hard, right? Plus everything that machine pops out will be 100% acceptable, and will get hammered in. BTW same day ZR looks like đź’©
 
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sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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where are you located, and why not check out the Versamill lineup from Axsys?

axsysdental.com
not to derail this thread.....
but can you design new tool paths for me? obviously ill pay for your time. struggling over here lol
 
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Ivotion is an ok product if you are using a quick turnaround business model. Not much wiggle room for esthetics, though they can be made to look acceptable with an experienced person using the mill. Ceramill FDS would be more esthetic if that is the business model that you are in, but requires more technician skill to work with the acrylic processing. Problem with both is wet/dry use. They have to be cleaned and dried meticulously when you switch to keep them in top condition. If money isn't much of an issue, I would purchase one for each process.
 
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Hey y'all.

I am a dentist in a 4 doc group practice. Heavy bread and butter dentistry. We are wanting to purchase an in house mill that can provide same day crowns and mill dentures. More heavily zirconium, rare occasion emax, and lots of removable. We are being advised to purchase planmeca 60s. Ivoclar came to our office to show off their dual shade pucks ivotion. Any recommendations would be much appreciated. Are dual pucks from ivoclar worth the squeeze? Will other brands becoming out with dual pucks such as ivotion? Budget is not so much of a concern, but it is taken into consideration. Thanks in advance!!
Good luck easier said than done. Have you calculated the labor on that, the equipments and trouble shooting. Dental assistants are not suitable and capable to run these things. You are talking about $150k to $200k. Just my opinion.
 
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flossich

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Appreciate the response. We will be training our staff. We had an inhouse lab for 20 years, they retired and we want to get another one going. We will be sending out our anterior work to a more skilled technician, but for posterior molars we will learn the process of milling then convert to same day once workflow is figured out. I will definitely take a look at versamill. Any other advice or suggestions? Seems like people in these forums don't like new comers dipping their toes into this sector. We need to start somewhere.
 
RileyS

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I always say you get what you pay for so it's usually worth it to go with the most expensive equipment hands down. That goes for mills, air compressors, dust collectors, printers, computers, zirconia, ovens, both porcelain and sintering, and so on. I've gone cheap and the expensive equipment makes life easier. Also, don't fall into the trap of buying everything from one supplier as they will lock you into only having certain options available many times. Best to spread it out among multiple vendors to keep things open. Make sure you're ready or your assistant's are ready to trouble shoot computer and equipment problems as they arise because Murphey loves to show up as frequently as possible with this stuff! Ha!
With what you're wanting to do you'll definitely want two mills at the minimum though.
Try to keep your same integrity you have now with regards to lab work quality. If anything was acceptable it will be an easier transition for you. But if you wanted things to look natural fit healthily then you'll want to cook your zirconia overnight make sure your prep shapes are something your chosen system can handle to mill sealed margins and contacts. I've seen a lot of doctor-turned-lab-guy crowns and there are very few that look ok, and great looking work (most of this websites labs do great work) is pretty rare. Most of the chairside work is just awful. Like really sad for the patient. The super fast zirconia infuriates me when an account who was the most demanding of perfection starts to proudly cement those chalk teeth cause they could do it in a day. If I ever did that work they would be calling and letting me know about it! Shocking. So just do your best for the patients! My wife was butchered by dentists and their crappy crowns so I'm a little sensitive...
But, again, start with the high quality expensive equipment.
Good luck to you in your future endeavor!
 
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Hey y'all.

I am a dentist in a 4 doc group practice. Heavy bread and butter dentistry. We are wanting to purchase an in house mill that can provide same day crowns and mill dentures. More heavily zirconium, rare occasion emax, and lots of removable. We are being advised to purchase planmeca 60s. Ivoclar came to our office to show off their dual shade pucks ivotion. Any recommendations would be much appreciated. Are dual pucks from ivoclar worth the squeeze? Will other brands becoming out with dual pucks such as ivotion? Budget is not so much of a concern, but it is taken into consideration. Thanks in advance!!
One chamber isn't conducive for what you're trying to accomplish, IMO. Sounds like you need at least dual chamber for one wet and one dry. I also, second that same day zr doesn't look great but to each their own. I would also look into how long it takes to design/ mill/ sinter/ stain/ glaze "chairside" a zr crown (if I'm not mistaken it's still much slower than doing cerec/ emax) especially if you want to do multiple a day, you'll monopolize your flow and machines with just one crown- but again to each their own with how you want to spend your chair time.
 
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flossich

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I always say you get what you pay for so it's usually worth it to go with the most expensive equipment hands down. That goes for mills, air compressors, dust collectors, printers, computers, zirconia, ovens, both porcelain and sintering, and so on. I've gone cheap and the expensive equipment makes life easier. Also, don't fall into the trap of buying everything from one supplier as they will lock you into only having certain options available many times. Best to spread it out among multiple vendors to keep things open. Make sure you're ready or your assistant's are ready to trouble shoot computer and equipment problems as they arise because Murphey loves to show up as frequently as possible with this stuff! Ha!
With what you're wanting to do you'll definitely want two mills at the minimum though.
Try to keep your same integrity you have now with regards to lab work quality. If anything was acceptable it will be an easier transition for you. But if you wanted things to look natural fit healthily then you'll want to cook your zirconia overnight make sure your prep shapes are something your chosen system can handle to mill sealed margins and contacts. I've seen a lot of doctor-turned-lab-guy crowns and there are very few that look ok, and great looking work (most of this websites labs do great work) is pretty rare. Most of the chairside work is just awful. Like really sad for the patient. The super fast zirconia infuriates me when an account who was the most demanding of perfection starts to proudly cement those chalk teeth cause they could do it in a day. If I ever did that work they would be calling and letting me know about it! Shocking. So just do your best for the patients! My wife was butchered by dentists and their crappy crowns so I'm a little sensitive...
But, again, start with the high quality expensive equipment.
Good luck to you in your future endeavor!
Thank you!
 
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Milling is a sufficiently-complicated process that- depending on the volume of production you want to do, and especially if you're looking at getting two mills to have dedicated wet/dry mills, which I recommend if at all possible- I'd recommend hiring someone with CNC-specific education, or particularly experience with operating and maintaining/troubleshooting CNC mills in industry, non-dental is fine. Labs seem to consistently underappreciate the barriers lying between you and running good parts with low reject rates, and particularly with not being entirely at the mercy of your vendor whenever you have an issue. Training the techs you already have will get your mills running, for the time being, but any curveballs or challenges and you'll immediately run into the limits of what you can do in-house. Running and maintaining a machining centre needs specialists with specialized education and experience, and if you don't ensure you have those on staff up-front, you'll end up paying five times as much to get those specialists in by the hour later on.
 
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Brett Hansen CDT

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We have Ivoclar's PM7 which can mill dentures. We have never used it for that. It is a great mill for zirconia and milling PMMA and wax. We do not use it to mill wet so I would echo the other people that have said to get a dedicated wet and a dedicated dry mill.


Appreciate the response. We will be training our staff. We had an inhouse lab for 20 years, they retired and we want to get another one going. We will be sending out our anterior work to a more skilled technician, but for posterior molars we will learn the process of milling then convert to same day once workflow is figured out. I will definitely take a look at versamill. Any other advice or suggestions? Seems like people in these forums don't like new comers dipping their toes into this sector. We need to start somewhere.

Yes, there are many people on here who look side eyed at anyone who isn't a dental tech asking questions. Be glad you aren't a patient coming on here looking for advice :) Having said that, there is a wealth of info and experience here if you can get past some of the pointed comments.
 
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Why not start small- get a printer for the same day posterior crowns?
The printing workflow is VERY easy that virtually anyone can do it (the printing/cleaning steps).

I'd look at the Asiga printers- they are qualified with a couple of the crown materials & have recently been validated for use with the Lucitone Digital Denture materials.
 
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flossich

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Why not start small- get a printer for the same day posterior crowns?
The printing workflow is VERY easy that virtually anyone can do it (the printing/cleaning steps).

I'd look at the Asiga printers- they are qualified with a couple of the crown materials & have recently been validated for use with the Lucitone Digital Denture materials.
We do have a 3d printer and love it!! Are you suggesting the 3d printer for dentures or for crowns? The crowns were hesitant on, for now were doing 3d ceramic printed crowns instead of stainless steel crowns for pediatric. Parents really appreciate the tooth colored crowns. Far as 3d printed dentures Im hesitant on the quality, any success on your end?
 
Doris A

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We have Ivoclar's PM7 which can mill dentures. We have never used it for that. It is a great mill for zirconia and milling PMMA and wax. We do not use it to mill wet so I would echo the other people that have said to get a dedicated wet and a dedicated dry mill.




Yes, there are many people on here who look side eyed at anyone who isn't a dental tech asking questions. Be glad you aren't a patient coming on here looking for advice :) Having said that, there is a wealth of info and experience here if you can get past some of the pointed comments.
We aren't allowed to give patients advice, because we aren't dentist's.
 
TheLabGuy

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A four Doc office wanting to do all the lab work...oh this is going to be good. My advice, set up a webcam and sell tickets to the eventual shltshow that's about to happen.
 
Andrew Priddy

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A four Doc office wanting to do all the lab work...oh this is going to be good. My advice, set up a webcam and sell tickets to the eventual shltshow that's about to happen.
:pop:
we would tune in... great side gig
 
Toothman19

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Hey y'all.

I am a dentist in a 4 doc group practice. Heavy bread and butter dentistry. We are wanting to purchase an in house mill that can provide same day crowns and mill dentures. More heavily zirconium, rare occasion emax, and lots of removable. We are being advised to purchase planmeca 60s. Ivoclar came to our office to show off their dual shade pucks ivotion. Any recommendations would be much appreciated. Are dual pucks from ivoclar worth the squeeze? Will other brands becoming out with dual pucks such as ivotion? Budget is not so much of a concern, but it is taken into consideration. Thanks in advance!!
oh here we go again....
 
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