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    Three attempts - three broken burs...

    Discussion in 'Dental-CAM' started by Contraluz, Feb 10, 2018.

    1. Contraluz

      Contraluz Well-Known Member Full Member

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      So, after I got that Amman Gierbach Zolid FX ML disc, I tried to mill a three unit, screw retained bridge. After three attempts and three broken burs, I gave up and outsourced it... In the same attempts, screw retained individual units were milled well!

      I have a Wieland Mini and the burs broke when it tried to mill parts of the screw access hole. The third attempt was under Wieland's guidance. Still, no success. We have milled screws retained bridges successfully before with the Zircad Multi MT discs form Ivoclar. I looked for a different material because of the missing bleach shades in the Multi discs (except BL1 and, I don't want to color). BTW, I really like the results of those Zircad Multi MT discs!

      I am fairly new to milling. So I think it is more a user induced error than anything else... However, my questions are:

      Is the material different, do I need different burs? Can I use different burs? Has anybody milled Zolid FX ML on a Mini? Any tips or tricks?

      Thanks in advance!

      M
       
    2. CoolHandLuke
      Fiendish

      CoolHandLuke 40% titanium Staff Member Full Member

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      zirconia is one of those really funny materials. its soft, sure, but every puck manufacturer is slightly different.

      for example in my experience with Sagemax the HS type is highly intolerant to vibration, and the machine RPM cannot exceed 25 000 or there will be chips. by contrast the HT is much more forgiving and can cut quicker, even on machines that wobble or get hit.

      while i dont have experience with Zolid, i'll be willing to bet its the same situation. turning down your spindle speed might help. unfortunately all i can recommend is trial and error.
       
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    3. Contraluz

      Contraluz Well-Known Member Full Member

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      Thanks a buch for the input, CHL!

      Yeah, I figured that, too...
       
    4. Sevan P
      Relaxed

      Sevan P Well-Known Member Full Member

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      So youh are tryi g to mill a screw retained bridge on a 4axis mill? Curious as to how you positioned it in the cam. It can be done onlly if setup a certain way. Pics of how you set it up in the cam and did you run simulation to check for collision?

      I have two minis and a select and hybrid select, seems like the angles between the two implants are way off for the mini toi mill. Individuals will mill since the insertion path on each is straight up and down.

      Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
       
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    5. Getoothachopper
      Amused

      Getoothachopper Well-Known Member Donator Full Member

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      I was wondering what were you doing the first two time before the third attempt under Wieland guidance ? Where you running a different CAM software or did they talk you through it via TM Viewer ? Iv'e milled thousands of units of Zolid FX ML with my mini and never had a bur break . I like what Sevan said sounds like you need a 5 axis for those kind of jobs . Where do you get your burs from ? ( i'm just using the $29 ones from toolmack or sometimes even Ebay, but I do change them frequently when told by the software or sometimes even sooner if I hear the cutting noise change ) Any way there's my input ,hope you get it sorted .
       
    6. Contraluz

      Contraluz Well-Known Member Full Member

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      Yeah... It is what I have, right now. It seems, We have milled multi-unit screw-retained bridgesI, already. It seems, we have been lucky, so far. This is the first real issue, we'v had so far. Since It is it happened with different material, I usually use, I thought there might be more to it...

      As I said, we are still learning and figuring out the details...

      That will have to wait until Monday...

      :) Learning by doing, I guess, and trying to avoid a lengthy phone call... First attempt, I thought it is a one off. After the second attempt we sought help from Wieland, which lead to a broken bur. too...

      We run Wieland's software. And yes, team viewer was used to communicate...

      Well, it is what I have available. I hope to be able to change it for one of the new 5axis Programill, later the year. Probably will outsource rather sooner, than later, in the future.

      OEM...

      That is what we have been doing, too.

      And I appreciate your help and input!

      In general, I am pretty happy with what I get out of the Mini! The sintered ZirCad Multi looks nice and is pretty spot on, what shade concerns. But, we do a fair amount of implant restorations and I hope, I can find a healthy balance ($$$) of milling in-house and outsourcing, until I can upgrade.

      M
       
    7. Sevan P
      Relaxed

      Sevan P Well-Known Member Full Member

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      Listen, it can be done on a 4axis, you just need to place the bridge within the A axis movement in order for it to properly mill the screw channels. But if you randomly place the bridge in the puck without paying attention to the channels then of course you will break burs no mater what Zr you use.

      Do you run simulation on anything? It will clearly show you undercuts and collision points before you even send it off to the cnc. I have only been on wieland cam for 8 months but know it pretty much inside out and it is a very powerful cam software with a lot of options to prevent this from ever happening.

      LOL the emoji at the beginning, it was L i s t e n.
       
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    8. Contraluz

      Contraluz Well-Known Member Full Member

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      Only twisted minds see something else... o_O

      I have to add, the Mini, I have, is an interim solution and an older model, without updated software. Whenever we ask for support, they are 'surprised' the machine is working at all... (because the software...) :cool:

      I was not aware this is an option...

      There is a lot to learn and figure out...

      I appreciate your help!
       
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    9. Sevan P
      Relaxed

      Sevan P Well-Known Member Full Member

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      What version cam are you on?

      Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
       
    10. Car 54
      No Mood

      Car 54 Well-Known Member Donator Full Member

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      Let alone this is the thickest puck you've had to use to mill this type of case, as far as past success and what your going through now, 22mm?
      So path of insertion, collision points could really come into play.
       
    11. Contraluz

      Contraluz Well-Known Member Full Member

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      Zenotec 4.2.6

      Is that it?

      M
       
    12. Contraluz

      Contraluz Well-Known Member Full Member

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      I think it is 20mm, not 22. But you are right, this is the tallest puck, so far. Although, I will have a case for a 22mm, shortly...
       
    13. Car 54
      No Mood

      Car 54 Well-Known Member Donator Full Member

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    14. Sevan P
      Relaxed

      Sevan P Well-Known Member Full Member

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      That is the cnc and damn your outdated. Current version availabble to update to is 6.1.6 but I still run 6.10 and 6.1.2 The cnc isn't the main issue it is the cam. Current version is 3.4.

      Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
       
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    15. Sevan P
      Relaxed

      Sevan P Well-Known Member Full Member

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      Only difference between the two is liteerally the addition of the. 3mm tool and that is it. Sad they want 2500.00 more for just the .3mm strategy to be added.
      Just open up the milling area this takes care of most outside collision. I milled a full arch implant bridge a few months back out of a 30mm wide open milling area and I was nailbiting the whole way. And this was on a 5axis.

      Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
       
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    16. Car 54
      No Mood

      Car 54 Well-Known Member Donator Full Member

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      Fortunately, when I bought it they were offering it for 1/2 price. I think there were also a couple more clicks and ticks in advanced compared to the basic on the cam side, from what I remember when I upgraded.
       
    17. Contraluz

      Contraluz Well-Known Member Full Member

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      As I said, it is an interim solution and no software updates planned...:cool:
       
      Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
    18. Car 54
      No Mood

      Car 54 Well-Known Member Donator Full Member

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      Good point, Sevan, about the cam current version being the main issue. Contraluz, it can be found on the bottom left of the window, just in case :)

      cam.PNG
       
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    19. Contraluz

      Contraluz Well-Known Member Full Member

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      Thanks, Car!

      So, I am on 2.2.021

      I would guess they carved the dinosaurs with that version...

      M
       
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    20. Sevan P
      Relaxed

      Sevan P Well-Known Member Full Member

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      OMG!

      Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
       
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