The best 3D printer for plastic models

[REJ]

3M uses ipro 8000 SLA from 3D systems. Only part of the build plate as it loses accuracy at the edges. Very expensive and breakdown a lot.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

if that was true, sir, the detail on the trident would be much less. those pictures sing volumes regarding the smallest printable details and to me those pictures tell me that indeed the Form1 should be quite adequate for Dental Use. however seeing the next earliest ship date isnt until summer of 2013 (and i am guessing few among us here would have already pre-ordered one) we won't really be able to tell with a hands-on model.

Veneer margin walls are greater than 300 microns anyway. most posterior margins can be extruded like a Cadent iTero die. none of us would have much issue with Inlay walls. i'm not seeing a problem to make c+b models. and if it's good enough for c+b it's gotta be good enough for denture and ortho.

300 microns is a much finer resolution than the roland DWX50's .6mm bur set, so in theory it could create a much more detailed anatomy crown. in practice we know that's not exactly true.

but again, i'm a bit skeptical of that, techartisan. the pictures indicate to me different than what you posted. so i'm not sure now what is practically true, and what is textbook truth.

 

[TECHARTISAN]

Ill not argue with you one the requirements for a printed part within dentistry...there is no astm standard to reference....I think everyone has their own ideas as to the requirements....
but in response to your other points...

The roland is subtractive not additive...so there is a significant difference in the application.
While a .6mm burr is twice the diameter of the formlabs beam, a bur is capable of removing less material than its diameter....so its EXTERNAL or INTERNAL feature size is limited less by tool then by movement. This is the same benefit I am describing with the formlabs machine but in reverse. These areas are as smooth as the machine movement. In areas of plunge or pencil operations then the subtractive feature is limited in the same way wall thickness and minimum feature is with the formlabs machine....restricted by tool/beam size.

Now as to the trident...
A US Quarter is 31/32"
After adjusting scaling this means......
the center tines barb would then measure where it expands from the tine a width of .08", 2032 microns, and .14" , 3556 microns in length to its tip.


My invisionhr does 656dpi xy, so ~38 microns is the smallest possible single point of deposition...but because its method is "raster" rather than "vector" it cannot edge smooth for higher apparent resolution. So while this model printed on the Invision would not be as smooth along planar borders, the tip of the trident would, in my print, be approximately 1/8th the dimension of their tip. Significantly sharper.

There is no reason that the beam diameter HAS to be 300 microns. They could have reduced beam diameter significantly but doing so would dramatically increase their build time. I think their machine is a great design. I think its very capable...of what its intended to do. Their machine has an intended audience, its an alternative/upgrade to reprap/makerbot etc marketed to that level of user, hobbyists. Id love to see their FORM2, should it happen, include a zero aperture iris to allow beam dimension to be varied to allow fast fill at their 300 micron and a second fine feature pass at a smaller beam diameter....but as it stands...
Its resolution is significantly beneath MY requirements...ymmv

 

[SINTEO Dental]

Guys, thank you for your discussion.
Im quite amateur in this sphere but need to orientate myself.
In my opinion and according to my experience, ona of ASIGA machines (USA) creates really good models (25microns). But the problem is capacity, I need for bigger daily production.

 

[RJS8669]

Hey Bob - Do you know of anyone using the MP 3500 in production? We're getting more and more digital impressions and I'm considering getting a printer - would appreciate your input...

 

[Vazone]

So what about current printer market? Still no good solution for cheap and precise models?

 

[BobCDT]

Correct, no good cheap printers.

 

[Vazone]

So only 3dsystems? Dp6000?

 

[BobCDT]

RJ we are using the MP 3500 for model production every day.
I know the 3D Systems MP 3500 & 3510 has the needed accuracy.
New printers are coming out all the time. I don't know that there is not an other being sold that gets us the 25 micron accuracy we need. All others we (CAP) have tested did not have this level of resolution. But, we have not tested all the printers being sold into dental. Many are fabricating models that have 200 plus microns of error. There are definitely printers being sold into dental that are not close to what we need. They are possibly OK for surgical guides and orth.
The most recent printer we tested was the DWS product out of Italy. I loved this printer for several reasons. We received models back from them and out engineering tested them and they were not close to what's needed. We forwarded DWS an extensive report on CAP's finding and DWS said they would fix the error and reprint the models. This was about six months ago and we never heard from them again.

 

[cadfan]

So only 3dsystems? Dp6000?

Its a question of money 3 dsystems 3000 or 3500 mp 32 my layer about 40 K Dollar
Statasys objet eden 260 16 my layer i think about 80 K Dollar
Objet 30 Orthodesk 28 my layer ?
DWS D 29 150x150mm 10 my Layer 99 K Euro
Asiga small Plattform ca,30 my layer 8 K Euro
Envision tec they work with vauxel 25 my layer dont know the price

There are still a few concepts to make them cheaper with better resolution but it takes a few years so for production now price cost relation 3d systems 3000 MP or 3500 MP as Scott said the same inside i dont know or maybe the new objet 30 orthodesk the best is maybe dws . Look at the Z layer x y is about double and at the materials some have good resolution but only one or two materials.

 

[GoldRunner]

I just got some printed models back from CAP and they are beautiful. The material almost feels like die stone. Just for fun I milled the die itself out of PMMA with my Mini. It fit snugly into the model and has a better surface finish than the printed die. Maybe a hybrid approach is best? Of course you design from the virtual model work anyhow so maybe it does not matter. These are the best models I have seen compared to all the other systems. It costs about $35 per quadrant model (including $12 in CAD points) so it is a premium service, but at least we can offer it.

Why not just mill confirmation models with dies? It might take some time, but reduce the detail in non essential areas to decrease mill time. I would rather buy another mill that can also be used for something else than a printer that can only do plastic.

 

[BobCDT]

This is not just about layer thickness and XYZ accuracy. Our testing is showing model warpage as layers are fused to one another the materials shrinks as they are applied to the previous layer. The results are models that are not flat. This negatively effects the accuracy of the occlusal table and is seen as a significantly warped cast.

 

[cadfan]

This is not just about layer thickness and XYZ accuracy. Our testing is showing model warpage as layers are fused to one another the materials shrinks as they are applied to the previous layer. The results are models that are not flat. This negatively effects the accuracy of the occlusal table and is seen as a significantly warped cast.

Layerthicknes and a few percent deviation depending on the volume so for the dp 3500 25-50 my deviation by 25 mm so a modell 60x60 mm is out of realistic precision resolution normal gypsum like zeiser deviation ca. 30-35 my

But maybe if these printer guys work with a preformed pin plates so that they could segment the prints the accuracy is rising up. Just 50 cent for me for the idea for each model in the world

 

[ProJetter]

Its a question of money 3 dsystems 3000 or 3500 mp 32 my layer about 40 K Dollar
Statasys objet eden 260 16 my layer i think about 80 K Dollar

Guess u switched pricing of both machines
The 3500mp would be the best machine for 40k!!

 

[cadfan]

Guess u switched pricing of both machines
The 3500mp would be the best machine for 40k!!

Isnt the price 40K for the 3500 mp the 3000 is the older so ill think cheaper or not and inside same same ????

And work on deviation i cant see progress and for models it to bad.But i gave you an option my 50 cent.

 

[ProJetter]

Isnt the price 40K for the 3500 mp the 3000 is the older so ill think cheaper or not and inside same same ????

Sure, Inside is exactly the same hardware.
Just some more userfriendly stuff + touchscreen control on the 3500/3510 series.

Normally (i do only know EU-pricing) the MP-machines are about 75-80k in end-customer sales..

Objet is about 40k for the eden260, but whoever started printing high-res + accurate models with those machines, he must believe in the sales-guys and never see any competitor's part printed from MJM or DLP

 

[Vazone]

So Eden 260 and objet 24(30) are same quality? And if compare with mp3000 - who's better? Different opinions(

 

[Vazone]

Is a mp3000 precise enough to check fitting?

 

[ProJetter]

I really cannot compare objet's to each other. There are too much resins, each with another mixture, so it's quite heavy to see advantages in resolution in comparism.

About precision (my personal oppinion):
Who really needs 20micron pass-fit accuracy? Who really is able to re-produce it every day? And finally above 2 points in a generative way? LOL, guys, cum on

IMHO, the MJM Printers do have the best mechanical pre-set in hardware + some good resolution resins to get the best possible output.
The polyjet-stuff Starts with printheads on springs...i'll stop here with any further Word of "precision".
SLA + SLS do have some Fans...if it makes sense on those companies, great!!
DLP based should normally be the non-plus-ultra in Resolution and if there are compatible resins, you'll have the best accuracy additionally...but the Problem: workspace

Wait for Euromold, or in the meantime, take a look at Arburg's freeformer. Arburg is going the First step forward to Real manufacturing, but has alot of work in accuracy + Resolution!
On Euromold, this year, a not completely Brand new, DLP-based manufacturing Unit will be presented, but it will be the First Time in showcase for a end customer

 

[cadfan]

Its the statement of a big manufacturer in cad cam and if you look at the resolutions of printers its clear
In addition, dental technician Clear pointed out that bridges fabricated with CAD / CAM outweighed the fit of dental models from the rapid prototyping: "You have to adapt to the model.