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Bob Smith

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Disturbed , I think that you decided at a very early age that you had learned enough. I think that you should reconsider your decision.

Al is greedy? I cannot think of another member who has been more charitable to this site.He has spent countless hours posting pics of his work and given more advice and inspiration than anyone else on this forum. I too am very close to paying off my house, I have paid for my daughters 8 years of college ( go Hokies) my wife and I have been married for 36 years and she was able to quit work when she got pregnant 27 years ago and we have lived a very blessed life. I still have so far to go in this life and many goals, I'm old but fit and in your world driven by money oriented greed. I'm not as talented as Al and that perfectly fair,they should stamp on every newborns arse....results may vary. I will never be able to play the guitar like Tommy Emmanuel. But what I have done and will continue to do is to make as much honest profit as I can so that I can provide for myself, my family , and yes my charities,my choice. Don't know Al , never met the man, just glad that we have such a 'charitable' man on this site. Godspeed Al .
 
Affinity

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If you want a level playing field where everyone is equal and everyone has no more and no less.. then you need to go to Europe or better yet, Cuba or China.. You will never own anything, and never be able to produce more than the other lab down the street. To call someone like Al greedy is like calling the night, day..
When you have a family, and when youve been in business more than a year.. then you can see how much of your profits you would give away to the guy in the trailer park.. but guess what, it will probably be you..
 
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IMO the government should not be a charity, robin(g)hood, or a safety net. I am my family, mother in law, grandmother in law, brother and his daughter, church and friends, etc...... safety net, and they are mine. Giving a substantial amount to the charities of my choice beyond that is MY choice. Big Brother is no friend or relation of mine. In case you missed it (oh, say the GSA or TSA),each time the government takes money from the earners, they squander and absorb so much of it that they make almost any charity look exceptional. If anyone thinks people aren't paying their fair amount of taxes, show us by example and write a big fat check to the US Treasury. Clearly "equality" has worked so well in engineered societies- just ask those from China who post- if they dare to speak.

I want Al, and anyone else who works so hard to get rich. Maybe someday one of us will need to ask them for a job. If they don't have it, they can't do anything for anyone.
 
R

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Itemizing invoices won't work since sevices related to the sale of the device are considered part of the sale price.

Sale price:
The tax imposed under section 4191 is based on the price for which a taxable medical device is sold. Under section 48.4216(a)-1(a),the price for which a taxable article is sold includes the total consideration paid for the device, whether that consideration is in the form of money, services, or other things.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/newsroom/reg-113770-10.pdf

Also, charging less than a "fair market" price will result in them calculating what you owe based on a "constructive sale price rather than the actual sales price."

The basic sale price rules assume that the manufacturer sells the taxable article in an arm’s length transaction (that is, in a transaction between two unrelated parties) to a wholesale distributor that then sells the taxable article to a retailer that resells to consumers. However, if a manufacturer sells a taxable article other than to a wholesale distributor or at less than a fair market arm’s length price, the taxable sale price is determined on a constructive sale price rather than the actual sale price. The constructive sale price rules are set forth in section 4216(b),in §48.4216(b)-1, §48.4216(b)-2, §48.4216(b)-3, and §48.4216(b)-4 of the regulations, and in numerous revenue rulings.

Our only hope is to elect Mitt Romney and get this insane legislation repealed, or hope that nobody will notice the 2.3% tacked on the full price of their bill.
 
corona

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Itemizing invoices won't work since sevices related to the sale of the device are considered part of the sale price.

Sale price:
The tax imposed under section 4191 is based on the price for which a taxable medical device is sold. Under section 48.4216(a)-1(a),the price for which a taxable article is sold includes the total consideration paid for the device, whether that consideration is in the form of money, services, or other things.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/newsroom/reg-113770-10.pdf

Also, charging less than a "fair market" price will result in them calculating what you owe based on a "constructive sale price rather than the actual sales price."

The basic sale price rules assume that the manufacturer sells the taxable article in an arm’s length transaction (that is, in a transaction between two unrelated parties) to a wholesale distributor that then sells the taxable article to a retailer that resells to consumers. However, if a manufacturer sells a taxable article other than to a wholesale distributor or at less than a fair market arm’s length price, the taxable sale price is determined on a constructive sale price rather than the actual sale price. The constructive sale price rules are set forth in section 4216(b),in §48.4216(b)-1, §48.4216(b)-2, §48.4216(b)-3, and §48.4216(b)-4 of the regulations, and in numerous revenue rulings.

Our only hope is to elect Mitt Romney and get this insane legislation repealed, or hope that nobody will notice the 2.3% tacked on the full price of their bill.

i was hearing that the shipping of the device was not going to be taxed ? If that is correct , does that mean that what it cost me to ship (delivery driver and packaging ) can be itemized to lower the total cost ?
 
corona

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Itemizing invoices won't work since sevices related to the sale of the device are considered part of the sale price.

Sale price:
The tax imposed under section 4191 is based on the price for which a taxable medical device is sold. Under section 48.4216(a)-1(a),the price for which a taxable article is sold includes the total consideration paid for the device, whether that consideration is in the form of money, services, or other things.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/newsroom/reg-113770-10.pdf

Also, charging less than a "fair market" price will result in them calculating what you owe based on a "constructive sale price rather than the actual sales price."

The basic sale price rules assume that the manufacturer sells the taxable article in an arm’s length transaction (that is, in a transaction between two unrelated parties) to a wholesale distributor that then sells the taxable article to a retailer that resells to consumers. However, if a manufacturer sells a taxable article other than to a wholesale distributor or at less than a fair market arm’s length price, the taxable sale price is determined on a constructive sale price rather than the actual sale price. The constructive sale price rules are set forth in section 4216(b),in §48.4216(b)-1, §48.4216(b)-2, §48.4216(b)-3, and §48.4216(b)-4 of the regulations, and in numerous revenue rulings.

Our only hope is to elect Mitt Romney and get this insane legislation repealed, or hope that nobody will notice the 2.3% tacked on the full price of their bill.

i was hearing that the shipping of the device was not going to be taxed ? If that is correct , does that mean that what it cost me to ship (delivery driver and packaging ) can be itemized to lower the total cost ?
 
Tom Moore

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i was hearing that the shipping of the device was not going to be taxed ? If that is correct , does that mean that what it cost me to ship (delivery driver and packaging ) can be itemized to lower the total cost ?

It does seem that many things we lumped together to make it easy on the dentist to understand that are not part of the manufactured product will need to be line itemed. I guess, maybe.
 
corona

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It does seem that many things we lumped together to make it easy on the dentist to understand that are not part of the manufactured product will need to be line itemed. I guess, maybe.

so does that mean like in your circumstance tom , that since you dont do any of the manufacturing in your "lab" you can itemize the shipping and recieving as well as the packaging of your items to be relabeled or resold ( i dont quite know how you do it ) and reduce the total price of your crowns to lower your 2.3 tax payment ? and on that note . since you dont manufacture any of the crown or device in your lab ( im assuming that ) that you are even required to pay the tax ? why should you have to pay the tax on something you dont manufacture ?
 
A

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Are all dental labs going to have to register with the fda now because of the new tax and the irs is going to them for a list of manufactures.
I read if you dont it is a $10,000 fine
Registration appears to be about $2700.00
 
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dvice: Comprehensive Regulatory Assistance How to Market Your Device
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Device Advice: Comprehensive Regulatory Assistance
How to Market Your Device
Medical Device Registration and Listing
Important Reminders about Registration and Listing
Access Electronic Registration
Who Must Register, List and Pay the Fee
When to Register and List
How to Register and List
Payment Process
U.S. Agents
Documents
Search Registration and Listing
Contact Us
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Device Registration and Listing
Effective FY2013 (October 1, 2012) the requirements for medical device establishment registration and listing will change. Please see Medical Device Establishment Registration and Listing - Notice of Changes for FY 2013 for important information.

Please contact [email protected] for further information.

Device Registration and Listing: Get e-mail updates
Owners or operators of places of business (also called establishments or facilities) that are involved in the production and distribution of medical devices intended for use in the United States (U.S.) are required to register annually with the FDA. This process is known as establishment registration.

Congress has authorized FDA to collect an annual establishment registration fee for device establishment registrations. A detailed list of all those establishment types that have to pay the registration fee can be found at "Who Must Register, List and Pay the Fee". There are no reductions in annual establishment registration fees for small businesses or any other group

The schedule of registration fees for fiscal years as follows:

Year FY 2012 FY 2013
Fee $2,029 $2,575
Most establishments that are required to register with the FDA are also required to list the devices that are made there and the activities that are performed on those devices. If a device requires premarket approval or notification before being marketed in the U.S., then the owner/operator should also submit the FDA premarket submission number (510(k),PMA, PDP, HDE).

The amendments to the Medical Device User Fee Modernization Act require that after September 30th, 2007, all registration and listing information be submitted electronically, unless a waiver has been granted.

Registration and listing provides FDA with the location of medical device establishments and the devices manufactured at those establishments. Knowing where devices are made increases the nation’s ability to prepare for and respond to public health emergencies.

Note: If you encounter an issue or wish to contact us regarding the Electronic Registration and Listing System (FURLS),please send an email to [email protected].
 
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Risky Business: FDA Registration Fact or Fiction
Looking back over the past year, it appears that the most misunderstood issue for dental laboratories regarding compliance with FDA was and still is: Who has to register with FDA? And for those dental labs that do have to register the other question is “How do I register and as what?”

I’ll begin by stating that this isn’t a simple issue to address. Part of the confusion begins when you call FDA to ask the question but you may only state that you are a dental laboratory. Their answer would most likely be that according to the regulations dental laboratories are exempt from registration. You like that answer so you don’t register nor do you explore the issue any further until you hear that a colleague had to register his or her laboratory or a speaker or manufacturer informs you that there are certain criteria that trigger registration for a dental laboratory.

So, here’s an explanation about registration that hopefully is helpful to you. I preface this, however, by stating that you need to use this information along with the advice of FDA and/or other experts to determine if and how you should be registered with FDA.

First let’s take a look at the exemption for dental laboratories which is in Part 807 and specifically item (i) of Subpart D of Title 21-Food and Drugs, Chapter I-Food and Drug Administration, Department of Health and Human Services, Subchapter H-Medical Devices:

“PART 807 -- ESTABLISHMENT REGISTRATION AND DEVICE LISTING FOR MANUFACTURERS AND INITIAL IMPORTERS OF DEVICES
Subpart D--Exemptions

Sec. 807.65 Exemptions for device establishments.

The following classes of persons are exempt from registration in accordance with 807.20 under the provisions of section 510(g)(1),(g)(2),and (g)(3) of the act, or because the Commissioner of Food and Drugs has found, under section 510(g)(5) of the act, that such registration is not necessary for the protection of the public health. The exemptions in paragraphs (d),(e),(f),and (i) of this section are limited to those classes of persons located in any State as defined in section 201(a)(1) of the act.
(a) A manufacturer of raw materials or components to be used in the manufacture or assembly of a device who would otherwise not be required to register under the provisions of this part.
(b) A manufacturer of devices to be used solely for veterinary purposes.
(c) A manufacturer of general purpose articles such as chemical reagents or laboratory equipment whose uses are generally known by persons trained in their use and which are not labeled or promoted for medical uses.
(d) Licensed practitioners, including physicians, dentists, and optometrists, who manufacture or otherwise alter devices solely for use in their practice.
(e) Pharmacies, surgical supply outlets, or other similar retail establishments making final delivery or sale to the ultimate user. This exemption also applies to a pharmacy or other similar retail establishment that purchases a device for subsequent distribution under its own name, e.g., a properly labeled health aid such as an elastic bandage or crutch, indicating "distributed by" or "manufactured for" followed by the name of the pharmacy.
(f) Persons who manufacture, prepare, propagate, compound, or process devices solely for use in research, teaching, or analysis and do not introduce such devices into commercial distribution.
(g) [Reserved]
(h) Carriers by reason of their receipt, carriage, holding or delivery of devices in the usual course of business as carriers.
(i) Persons who dispense devices to the ultimate consumer or whose major responsibility is to render a service necessary to provide the consumer (i.e., patient, physician, layman, etc.) with a device or the benefits to be derived from the use of a device; for example, a hearing aid dispenser, optician, clinical laboratory, assembler of diagnostic x-ray systems, and personnel from a hospital, clinic, dental laboratory, orthotic or prosthetic retail facility, whose primary responsibility to the ultimate consumer is to dispense or provide a service through the use of a previously manufactured device.”

So what would change the above exemption and require a dental laboratory to register with FDA? The following chart indicates the activities that would place a dental laboratory in a position of having to register with FDA:

Manufactures a custom device - Even though you consider yourself as the manufacturer of a custom device, the typical appliances manufactured by dental laboratories do not fall into this category therefore most domestic dental labs would not register as a manufacturer. There are situations, however, where a dental laboratory in the US would register as a manufacturer, i.e. if they own a patented device.

Relabeler or Repackager - If you import dental devices such as PFM’s dentures and upon receipt you remove them from the foreign lab packaging and place them into your packaging with your name, then you must register as a Repackager/relabeler. If you take an order from a dental client for a sleep apnea device or snore guard but have another dental lab manufacture the device for you and upon receipt you place the item into your packaging with your name on it, then you must register as a Repackager/relabeler. There is no fee for this type of registration.

Contract manufacturer who commercially distributes the device for the specifications developer - If you manufacturer a sleep apnea device or snore guard, then you must register as a Contract Manufacturer. Currently the fee for this type of registration is $2,179.00 and seems to increase each year.

Initial Distributor/Importer - If you ship direct to a foreign dental laboratory and receive your appliances direct from the foreign dental lab, then you must register as the Initial Importer. There is no fee for this registration. If you go through a corporation in the US that is receiving your work, shipping it to the foreign lab, receives the work from the foreign lab, and then ships it to you, then you wouldn’t register with FDA. You want to be sure, however, that the corporation in the US is registered with FDA.

Foreign Manufacturers - Must register – typically as a Manufacturer and must pay a fee. You must only do business with a foreign manufacturer who is properly registered with FDA.

Once you have determined if you fall into any of those categories, then you must determine the product codes for the products that you will show on your registration. With the exception of the initial distributor/importer, you will need to list product codes. The best advice we can give you on this is to go to FDA’s Web site to determine the correct product codes. Ha, ha! This isn’t always an easy task either.

Some of the most common dental laboratory FDA Product Codes are:

LQZ-Device, Jaw Repositioning: 872.5570 Class II Device
LRK-Device, Anti-Snoring: 872.5570 Class II Device
OCO-Mouthguard, Migraine/Tension Headache:
KMY-Positioner, Tooth, Preformed: 872.5525 Class I Device
NSJ- Restoration, Noble Metal:
NSK- Dentures, Partial: NSL- Dentures, Full:
NSM- Restoration, Resin:
NSN- Restoration, Resin, Crown and Bridge:
NSO- Restoration, Porcelain-Fused-To-Metal:
NSP- Restoration, Porcelain:
NSQ- Restoration, Base Metal:
NSR- Prosthesis, Orthodontic:

The product codes with the first letter of “N” are the products manufactured by foreign labs so the foreign lab registering with the FDA would use those codes.

The following Web link will take you to the FDA’s registration information:

http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/registration/furls.html

Here are some reminders that are posted on the FDA Web site regarding registration:

All device establishments must complete their annual registration for each Fiscal Year between October 1 and December 31. Note from SafeLink: Be sure to mark your calendar to renew your registration. FDA does not typically send out a renewal notice. We had a number of calls in the last days of 2010 from labs trying to renew their registration so don’t wait that long. Also make sure you keep your sign-in password info handy as that can delay your renewal at the end of the year.
FDA is aware that various firms may be offering their services to assist domestic and/or foreign facilities to register with FDA. Please note that these firms are not affiliated with FDA, nor has the agency contracted with any firms to register facilities. FDA does not use any outside contractors to notify or bill regulated industry about the need to register. FDA does not require firms to hire someone to complete the on-line registration process.
FDA is aware that some browsers, and equipment may not operate correctly with our system. These include MAC personal computers, Internet Explorer 8.0, wide screen monitors, and browsers such as Firefox or Google browser (CHROME).
FDA communicates with registered medical device establishments by email. In order to receive electronic communications from FDA, be sure to set your spam filters to accept email from any @fda.gov email address.

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Mary Borg
 
Tom Moore

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so does that mean like in your circumstance tom , that since you dont do any of the manufacturing in your "lab" you can itemize the shipping and recieving as well as the packaging of your items to be relabeled or resold ( i dont quite know how you do it ) and reduce the total price of your crowns to lower your 2.3 tax payment ? and on that note . since you dont manufacture any of the crown or device in your lab ( im assuming that ) that you are even required to pay the tax ? why should you have to pay the tax on something you dont manufacture ?

I am a broker and salesperson for the lab in China. I register as the CDT of record for fastcrowns and we register as a lab in Texas but as the dental practice act now reads I really don't need to register as a lab in Texas. That will probably change soon and I'll already be ahead of the game.

The Lab in China is the manufacture I sell thier products and register as a repackager/relabeler. No the lab and I will not both need to pay.

I'm not worried about it either way and if it cost me $3200 a year for Federal and state registrations I will pay that. I will not pay it happily but I will not use my invoices as a bully pulpit to show my disdain for the tax. I hope to do that in a voting booth and bitching on the internet.
 
Affinity

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How does making domestic labs pay $2000 a year help domestic manufacturing, this only promotes more middle-men bypassing the registration and bringing in crowns from other countries. This is insane.. Can someone, anyone, tell me what was this deadly danger to patients with US-made appliances that prompted the FDA to step in??? And how does this CHANGE ANYTHING?? Will some inspector be looking over the shoulder of a registered lab? Will there be a yearly inspection of materials and practices? Or is this just another rung of the ladder on the way to destroying domestic manufacuring, small business, and ushering in a one world economy?
 
A

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According to an article I read dated March 12 2012, most of us wont have to register with the fda.
Only under certain circumstances, if you hold a patent, or make sleep apnea devices and a couple of more situations.
I tried to post article but it wouldnt cooperate.
 
Affinity

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According to an article I read dated March 12 2012, most of us wont have to register with the fda.
Only under certain circumstances, if you hold a patent, or make sleep apnea devices and a couple of more situations.
I tried to post article but it wouldnt cooperate.
While this may be true now, its only a matter of time.. whats stopping them?
 
disturbed

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Dentists in Idaho don't pay sales tax on anything they buy. FYI ..we labs are not allowed to charge them tax. Don't matter to me but first time i heard this i was flabergasted. Do Other states have this?
 
A

AL1

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Washington has no sales tax on restorations made for dentists but this is an excise tax to pay for obama care.
 
Affinity

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Dentists in Idaho don't pay sales tax on anything they buy. FYI ..we labs are not allowed to charge them tax. Don't matter to me but first time i heard this i was flabergasted. Do Other states have this?

Its because we pay state income tax unlike WA.. many states have income tax......
 
A

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The registration requirements for domestic dental labs have not changed. They are exempt under 807.65 except if they make sleep apnea or anti-snoring devices, etc.

The new medical device tax is not regulated by the FDA and is not dependent on establishment registration.
I emailed the fda registration place so this is right from the CDRH
 
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