Sand blasting zirconium affects the cte??!!!

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grantoz

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so what you are saying is we should never touch Zi with anything oh my god how have i survived these last 18 years using the stuff. oh no all my full arches are going to fail the sky is falling oh wait thats right nothings happened. moove on peeps nothing to see. if Zi was such touchy stuff how can anyone in good conscience even sell it.? .
 
Jason D

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so what you are saying is we should never touch Zi with anything oh my god how have i survived these last 18 years using the stuff. oh no all my full arches are going to fail the sky is falling oh wait thats right nothings happened. moove on peeps nothing to see. if Zi was such touchy stuff how can anyone in good conscience even sell it.? .
Agreed, there are basic rules about zirconia, and yes lots of labs had issues at the beginning because they were used to how “easy” fusing glass to gold was (conductivity and sintering behaviors made it easy if frames were designed properly and cte matched.)

All I see is ivoclar trying (again) to justify emax in a world that has moved on, with studies that measure things that have no real bearing on the “real world” challenges limitations and results.

Does porcelain chip or deliminate on zirconia? Sure thing, just like it did on pfms and just like it does on layered emax.

Good design, proper firing parameters and calibrated ovens, not abusing materials and understanding occlusion means the case succeeds.

It’s a little ironic that the company that made empress 2 and Targis vectris, two of the twitchiest, most technique sensitive and least successful materials ever, wants to throw stones about technique sensitivity at the most commonly requested material out there.
Now that I think about it, wasn’t it too narrow of a thermal coefficient match on empress two that caused the entire product line to be recalled and reformulated?
 
Contraluz

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so what you are saying is we should never touch Zi with anything oh my god how have i survived these last 18 years using the stuff. oh no all my full arches are going to fail the sky is falling oh wait thats right nothings happened. moove on peeps nothing to see. if Zi was such touchy stuff how can anyone in good conscience even sell it.? .
Failure rate at the beginning was quite high. Chipped porcelain, fractures, excessive abrasion on the opposing... When you decide to layer, you actually should follow a rather tight protocol (slow heating/cooling, enough support for the layering porcelain , liner and wash firing, etc...). Sure, for monolithic restorations you got more leeway and it is quite easy to work with. But that sandblasting thing is nothin new. I had it in my presentations over ten years ago, already.

As a side note, if you start reading the fine prints of all the product you use, you probably would stop working... Everything is pretty much a health hazard and/or you are not using it as intended by the manufacturer...
 
Contraluz

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Now that I think about it, wasn’t it too narrow of a thermal coefficient match on empress two that caused the entire product line to be recalled and reformulated?
I think, if memory serves correctly, the layering porcelain fused into the core material and thus weakening the restoration. I am sure somebody else has better memory than myself...

Good design, proper firing parameters and calibrated ovens, not abusing materials and understanding occlusion means the case succeeds.
Totally agree and this is key to pretty much everything. Learn and understand the materials you are using.But, as I mention above, the sandblasting thing is not new.

empress 2 and Targis vectris,
Now you brought back some memory...
 
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So, even if blasting did change the CTE, does it change it up or down? Porcelains are deemed a match if the CTEs fall within a specific range. Whos to say that a slight change wouldnt cause a shift towards a better CTE match...since no one knows what Zr or porcelain Im using.
 
CoolHandLuke

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agreed. even if the change did occur, it couldn't be big enough to fall outside acceptable range.
 
rkm rdt

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is the psi # relevant ?
 
rkm rdt

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2bar ~= 29PSI

It is relevant. Higher pressure -> greater flow of particles -> greater friction heating possiblities.
yes,I was thinking in reverse ie would a lower psi diminish the cte effect or risk?
 
JMN

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yes,I was thinking in reverse ie would a lower psi diminish the cte effect or risk?
Yes, that's why 20psi was the standard for Nobel Procera copings in 2007ish
 
Adi

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Another friend was in Germany , he asked the same question to Vita guy , same answer: it affects the cte.
Couldn't upload the clip,
He said that sandblasting generates heat ( about 800°c) thus going back to pre-centering
 
CoolHandLuke

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sandblasting generates 800C of heat are you nuts ?
 
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i was part of a scientific paper on this years ago if you followed the info from vita on how to fire their porcelain to the letter on zi everything cracked so much so that the head on the paper contacted vita directly. the response was well of course you have to slow heat and cool on thick sections but nothing was written about this in their instructions as soon as we used Zirkonzahns guidelines for firing but with vita's temps the porcelain worked fine.its why im such a fan of ZZ they had their 5hit sorted right from the beginning i never had the chipping cracking problems that many did. either way ZZ was not too worried about sandblasting Zi they found that it made Zi stronger but they also found that porcelain bonded better to zi if the surface was smooth. but they freely admit that sometimes you need to roughen the surface to get stains on properly.
 
Contraluz

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Even if I repeat myself, I resort to the regeneration cycle, after grinding and/or sandblasting. Program 151/152 on your Programat, depending on the model. See below:
 

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2thm8kr

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I have read somewhere that the regenerative cycle is a myth. The temperature is no where near what is needed to have it make a difference.
 
CoolHandLuke

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Google doesnt show anything on that subject for me. if you have a link or a source that would be great.

i've never believed in regeneration cycling but thats only because i am slow witted and mostly crazy.
 
Contraluz

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I have read somewhere that the regenerative cycle is a myth. The temperature is no where near what is needed to have it make a difference.
How cruel to crush my illusions... o_O

But I will investigate what it actually does and doesn't...
 
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