PrograMill PM3 - PM5 users here?

Contraluz

Contraluz

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I am due for an upgrade from my Wieland Mini. Nothing wrong with it, but the 4 axis limit the use in implant cases. So, the most 'logic' upgrade would be a PM3. I have seen reports on the PM7 here, but as far as I am aware, nothing on the PM3 or PM5, which are different from the PM7.

So, if you know things, speak up! :cool:

Thanks in advance!

M
 
Car 54

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I've inquired about those as well.
With Ivoclar we know we're going to get a very nice mill along with excellent support. But don't they seem a bit overpriced to you, or am I not keeping up with current mill prices?
 
Brett Hansen CDT

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We bought a PM7 a year ago to replace our Wieland Mini for similar reasons. It wasn't cheap, but the support has been excellent and the mill has been flawless.
 
Contraluz

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We bought a PM7 a year ago to replace our Wieland Mini for similar reasons. It wasn't cheap, but the support has been excellent and the mill has been flawless.
HI Brett. Thanks for the input. My understanding is that the PM7 is a different beast, compared to the PM5 and PM3, which share the same platform. But it is good to hear the bigger sibling is holding up.
 
Contraluz

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I've inquired about those as well.
With Ivoclar we know we're going to get a very nice mill along with excellent support. But don't they seem a bit overpriced to you, or am I not keeping up with current mill prices?
Yeah, that is my sentiment, too... :eek: I am neither familiar with the costs of competing brands, I have to confess.
 
Car 54

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But if it's built and preforms like our mini mills, along with their support, is still probably worth it in the long run.

It may be worth asking your inside sales rep of any price or financing promotions that you could possibly wait for to help out with. As you know, Ivoclar is pretty good offering those.
 
eyeloveteeth

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If you plan to mill e.max, get a PM7, and even then, you NEED to keep it clean and maintenance needs to be flawles.

case in point, when we first got it, and followed their onboarding - we were averaging about 15-20 units per synergy tank.

Now that we've learned and went through our own maintenance process, we average about 30-38 units per synergy tank. Why is this worth mentioning? By overhauling how we work with the PM7, we ended up with less burs breaking, so all in all, it wasn't just the $0.68 cents we saved by being able to increase our units.

That being said, if you are milling Zirconia only, there are many many many options. But mixing Zirconia and PMMA with blue block milling is very very not ideal. (in any situation)

In a perfect world, the PM7 or Zirkonzahn would mill all of my PMMA, Peek and duracetal lol.
 
Contraluz

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If you plan to mill e.max, get a PM7, and even then, you NEED to keep it clean and maintenance needs to be flawles.

case in point, when we first got it, and followed their onboarding - we were averaging about 15-20 units per synergy tank.

Now that we've learned and went through our own maintenance process, we average about 30-38 units per synergy tank. Why is this worth mentioning? By overhauling how we work with the PM7, we ended up with less burs breaking, so all in all, it wasn't just the $0.68 cents we saved by being able to increase our units.

That being said, if you are milling Zirconia only, there are many many many options. But mixing Zirconia and PMMA with blue block milling is very very not ideal. (in any situation)

In a perfect world, the PM7 or Zirkonzahn would mill all of my PMMA, Peek and duracetal lol.
Thank you very much for the insight! No desire to mill wet or e.max, for that matter. I am not even in need of a disc changer. Hence the PM3, which is a stripped down PM5, according to my sales rep. To be honest, I have not looked around for alternatives.
 
Car 54

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If the PM3, PM5 were announced in Cologne in 2017, why have they only been available here in the states recently, around the last 6 months?
 
Contraluz

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If the PM3, PM5 were announced in Cologne in 2017, why have they only been available here in the states recently, around the last 6 months?
That I don't know for sure. But I'd guess limited production, fine tuning at the last minute etc etc. From what I understand, the PM7, which was released first, suffered quite a bit from growing pains. Now it seems to be a solid machine. So, I guess, the delay was to make sure they don't encounter the same problem.
 
Car 54

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That's what I was thinking, too.

When I looked into the PM7, I was told it is a little more finicky compared to the more forgiving Mini, along the lines that eyelove mentioned, but even more so concerning the air compressor requirements.

I'm right on the border of needing to get a bigger compressor for a PM3. I really don't have the space for a 50gal. compressor. My friend runs a Mikro 5 using the exact same compressor as myself (link below),without a hitch. My cfm may drop below the threshold needed if I increase the cut in cut off to get the constant 100psi and the 10-15 cfm needed for the PM3.

 
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Patrick Coon

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That's what I was thinking, too.

When I looked into the PM7, I was told it is a little more finicky compared to the more forgiving Mini, along the lines that eyelove mentioned, but even more so concerning the air compressor requirements.

I'm right on the border of needing to get a bigger compressor for a PM3. I really don't have the space for a 50gal. compressor. My friend runs a Mikro 5 using the exact same compressor as myself (link below),without a hitch. My cfm may drop below the threshold needed if I increase the cut in cut off to get the constant 100psi and the 10-15 cfm needed for the PM3.


Requirements for all the current Programills is 6.5-7bar (97-105psi) and 205 l/min (7.5cfm). Not sure if your information is so you can run your whole lab from the same compressor, but if you have the room, I would recommend a separate compressor to run your mill. This avoids the pressure dropping when you have to run the blaster or dry a cast with the air hose, or shoot flaming cotton tip applicators across the room.
 
JMN

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[...]or shoot flaming cotton tip applicators across the room.
We're all gonna try this now.

Used to be in a machine shop, we'd take a 1ltr mtn dew bottle, drill and thread a hole in the cap, put a 1/4 hose inlet in the cap and give it 120psi air till it went BOOM.

We were all hiding behind a gigantic lathe that made P51 Mustang parts in its youth.
 
Car 54

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Requirements for all the current Programills is 6.5-7bar (97-105psi) and 205 l/min (7.5cfm). Not sure if your information is so you can run your whole lab from the same compressor, but if you have the room, I would recommend a separate compressor to run your mill. This avoids the pressure dropping when you have to run the blaster or dry a cast with the air hose, or shoot flaming cotton tip applicators across the room.

Excellent recommendation Patrick, right in line with what the mill set up tech passed along to my inside sales rep.

I do have a very nice Apollo compressor I was using before I bought the Mini. So I would use that for the lab, and use the California Air for the mill. Even in getting a 30 gallon reserve tank next to the mill, having the compressor closer to the mill than where it now sits, and running 3/8ths air line, the tech said it could be 50/50 if it would be able to keep up with the PM3.

My thought is to do the above with the Mini and see if there is a performance increase with that compressor and set up. I still need to get ahold of C.A. though, to see what they think.
 
Car 54

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With my looking into other mills, the PM7 - 3 seem to need the greatest resource of compressed air than I can afford to upgrade to, or have the space for the needed compressor size.

It's off my list as far as a 5 axis mill for my lab.
 
eyeloveteeth

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With my looking into other mills, the PM7 - 3 seem to need the greatest resource of compressed air than I can afford to upgrade to, or have the space for the needed compressor size.

It's off my list as far as a 5 axis mill for my lab.

with out due respect, i think a really good question to ask right now is what is your long term goal lab wise. It's not just the PM mills, but they are ALL going to increasingly require more air. You may want to future proof yourself now.

It may be a very good time to take advantage of tax credits and slower year to write off upgrade expenses. Believe me, I am NOT an advocate for ivoclar, in fact i'm pretty sure Chris Holden called me a pain in the ass once (probably more than once)

But for smaller labs? I highlight suggest going with something like the PM (personally? 5) - because it's just simply too robust and the mill support is by far the best. I would only go with other brands if you are able to double down on redundancy.
 
Car 54

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with out due respect, i think a really good question to ask right now is what is your long term goal lab wise. It's not just the PM mills, but they are ALL going to increasingly require more air. You may want to future proof yourself now.

It may be a very good time to take advantage of tax credits and slower year to write off upgrade expenses. Believe me, I am NOT an advocate for ivoclar, in fact i'm pretty sure Chris Holden called me a pain in the ass once (probably more than once)

But for smaller labs? I highlight suggest going with something like the PM (personally? 5) - because it's just simply too robust and the mill support is by far the best. I would only go with other brands if you are able to double down on redundancy.

Literally no space for the compressor I'd need unless I move the lab to a bigger location. I have 2 cramped rooms, then to get a 50 gal. compressor with the additional heat and noise for this space that heats up so quickly, is probably not going to happen :)

Whatever a VHF K5+ (I'm considering) can't mill, would get outsourced, that would be my future proofing. I do have a Mini mill for redundancy. Yet I do know what you mean as far as Ivoclar support, so unless something unexpected happens...
 
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