Problems with swirls (not porosity)

[Toni Toscano]

After the processing is done it comes out normally. When its ready to be knocked down and finished. It then comes back to me from finishers usually days later with these "white swirls", and they are VERY noticeable. So devested. Good. Cleaned off. Good. Then handed off. If theres remaining stone in the arch or the gingiva it may be shell blasted off but very lightly and still has no Swirls afterwords. Swirls only on the tissue side of the palate and not thru but only on surface. So it keeps coming back to me like this. Basically looks extremely scorched. I've called fricke. I make sure the temps are right. The ratios are right. No contamination to lots plus have used all new power and liquids. I'm really stumped as to what is going on and what in my technique could be wrong or more likely what is happening once the work is out of my hands. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Please help! (I only process at this lab)
Ps. This doesn't happen in my home lab and I'm using the same acrylic and process. So I'm stumped.

 

[JMN]

After the processing is done it comes out normally. When its ready to be knocked down and finished. It then comes back to me from finishers usually days later with these "white swirls", and they are VERY noticeable. So devested. Good. Cleaned off. Good. Then handed off. If theres remaining stone in the arch or the gingiva it may be shell blasted off but very lightly and still has no Swirls afterwords. Swirls only on the tissue side of the palate and not thru but only on surface. So it keeps coming back to me like this. Basically looks extremely scorched. I've called fricke. I make sure the temps are right. The ratios are right. No contamination to lots plus have used all new power and liquids. I'm really stumped as to what is going on and what in my technique could be wrong or more likely what is happening once the work is out of my hands. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Please help! (I only process at this lab)
Ps. This doesn't happen in my home lab and I'm using the same acrylic and process. So I'm stumped.

is it being kept moist when it is not being worked? That won't cause it, but it may make it appear faster.



Pure guess, is it being fully incorporated? Totally mixed *and* left to bench set appropriately?

I am thinking that the swirls may be moderately-less-wetted powder that is swirled from stirrring, mixed but not enough, then placed into the flask as possibly more a patty instead of as a ball, but either way still not worked (enough?) by the rolling pin technique to align the veining, preserving the swirl of stirring.

To test this, have the packing tech change the direction of stir and observe if there is a resultant change in direction of swirl. If the swirl disappears, it is also confirmation as the packing tech is paying more attention with the different procedure.

I am not a user of that brand of material, but that would be the starting assumptions I would track down for answers.

 

[Toni Toscano]

Thank you. Its a start. We will definitely check this out!

 

[Wade Bognuda]

STOP using Fricke acrylic. I promise that is the problem.

 

[XxJamesAxX]

I️ agree with the post above.

It’s most likely something being done during processing. Probably not mixing the acrylic properly. You’d be amazed at what can happen when people get in a rush.


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[Toni Toscano]

Thank you everyone for you your responses. I am taking all suggestions seriously. I agree about fricke. Company does not.. I have pdfs on their directions for all types. I will try the opposite stirring technique so simple but so smart! One more question... My company is having me mix hi impact and vitacrylic powder half and half because they don't like the transparency of one or another alone. But we are mixing with 30 min monomer. And each power calls for different parameters of bench set time and so forth. But this info doesn't matter to them. So idk maybe that's the issue? I really wonder about why it doesn't show up until days later. Again thank you all for your info. Much appreciated

 

[Toni Toscano]

Contaminated foil coat? Also. Its not every case. They all look the same when detested then only a few .. Varies time to time. Mixing two batches in one cup. Roll into ball then tube. One later has swirls one doesnt. Same batch.

 

[Doris A]

Mixing the two acrylics together is probably the culprit. contaminated separator could also be part of the problem. That was my first guess until you said you were mixing polymers together. So it could be either one or both. Another idea is you may be packing too soon.

 

[JMN]

Thank you everyone for you your responses. I am taking all suggestions seriously. I agree about fricke. Company does not.. I have pdfs on their directions for all types. I will try the opposite stirring technique so simple but so smart! One more question... My company is having me mix hi impact and vitacrylic powder half and half because they don't like the transparency of one or another alone. But we are mixing with 30 min monomer. And each power calls for different parameters of bench set time and so forth. But this info doesn't matter to them. So idk maybe that's the issue? I really wonder about why it doesn't show up until days later. Again thank you all for your info. Much appreciated

Mixing two different systems materials is a total no go zone. There is no way to do it right, even if you mix them separately and combine them before or after benchset they will not properly work. Before bemchset and the monomer is leaching out of the wetter one, after benchset will prevent complete melding of them. Using the monomer and times for one at the same time disregarding the instructions for the other if mixing it all together at once will not help much either. It's expensive chemistry in those bottles. Cracks and fractures will begin at the material boundaries far easier than if it were all one acrylic.

And Doris is right, it's probably your problem.

Find one material that meets the needs, many will give you a sample just for the asking.

 

[Smilestyler]

I had a similar problem with a different brand of acrylic. We were told to do two things and Im not sure which solved the issue; first was to store the polymer in a cool area ( it was originally kept near the acrylizer) and second was to shake the polymer container vigorously to blend before measuring to mix. Maybe this can help.

 

[Toni Toscano]

Thanks guys so much. I've been saying this all along. Why mix to get a color you want when various company acrylics do it with one material.
So I have used pala press vario repair and flipper acrylic. I think its great. I am interested about kulzers other acrylic. Any thoughts on this? I havent had experience with it yet to suggest it to the company.
Thanks again!

 

[Inna-Hurry]

After the processing is done it comes out normally. When its ready to be knocked down and finished. It then comes back to me from finishers usually days later with these "white swirls", and they are VERY noticeable. So devested. Good. Cleaned off. Good. Then handed off. If theres remaining stone in the arch or the gingiva it may be shell blasted off but very lightly and still has no Swirls afterwords. Swirls only on the tissue side of the palate and not thru but only on surface. So it keeps coming back to me like this. Basically looks extremely scorched. I've called fricke. I make sure the temps are right. The ratios are right. No contamination to lots plus have used all new power and liquids. I'm really stumped as to what is going on and what in my technique could be wrong or more likely what is happening once the work is out of my hands. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Please help! (I only process at this lab)
Ps. This doesn't happen in my home lab and I'm using the same acrylic and process. So I'm stumped.

Who did you talk to at frickie? And why is your management so insistent about using that material? Is is not cheap (most other suppliers including Nowak offer free shipping on larger orders) and it sounds like it is not even the color you are looking for? Why don't people like frickie. Seems to work good for me.

 

[denturist-student]

When I switched to diamond D most of my problems like that disappeared.

 

[mshiss]

Make sure acrylic is getting mixed with gloves hands.


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[Flipperlady]

When I rush I get things like that, it's going to be either sep not dry enough/ model too hot-cold/ acrylic set up time, or take a little extra time trial packing.

 

[cmeistercdt]

If I may add to mshiss's post, definitely wear gloves, not only to keep your acrylic clean, but also to protect your liver.

The swirling to me sounds like a contamination of Vaseline or lotion. I know from experience. I used to lube my gloves with Vaseline before packing to keep the acrylic from adhering to my gloves, but if you pack at the right consistency, it shouldn't be sticking too much anyways.

So yeah. Don't use Vaseline or lotion, in addition to using only one product opposed to mixing the two together.

 

[David Laville]

After the processing is done it comes out normally. When its ready to be knocked down and finished. It then comes back to me from finishers usually days later with these "white swirls", and they are VERY noticeable. So devested. Good. Cleaned off. Good. Then handed off. If theres remaining stone in the arch or the gingiva it may be shell blasted off but very lightly and still has no Swirls afterwords. Swirls only on the tissue side of the palate and not thru but only on surface. So it keeps coming back to me like this. Basically looks extremely scorched. I've called fricke. I make sure the temps are right. The ratios are right. No contamination to lots plus have used all new power and liquids. I'm really stumped as to what is going on and what in my technique could be wrong or more likely what is happening once the work is out of my hands. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Please help! (I only process at this lab)
Ps. This doesn't happen in my home lab and I'm using the same acrylic and process. So I'm stumped.

Sounds like moisture contamination. Are your mixing jars dry before mixing? If there's any moisture in them when you start mixing it will contaminate the acrylic and give white swirls after processing.

 

[Inna-Hurry]

If I may add to mshiss's post, definitely wear gloves, not only to keep your acrylic clean, but also to protect your liver.

The swirling to me sounds like a contamination of Vaseline or lotion. I know from experience. I used to lube my gloves with Vaseline before packing to keep the acrylic from adhering to my gloves, but if you pack at the right consistency, it shouldn't be sticking too much anyways.

So yeah. Don't use Vaseline or lotion, in addition to using only one product opposed to mixing the two together.

How does packing acrylic affect your liver???!!!???? Do you drink whilst packing?

 

[JMN]

How does packing acrylic affect your liver???!!!???? Do you drink whilst packing?

Monomer is processed through the liver when it gets into the body. Whether by transcutaneous absorbtion or inhalation it is a risk. Which is why air filtration, masks, and gloves are a wise idea aside from being infection mitigation steps.

It has been shown to produce multiple effects on the human body, which is why residual monomer in a processed prosthetic is an issue.

Bottom of page 3:
http://msdssearch.dow.com/Published...fety/pdfs/noreg/233-00665.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

Multiple studies:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/poly-methyl-methacrylate

 

[Doris A]

How does packing acrylic affect your liver???!!!???? Do you drink whilst packing?

EVERYTHING that enters your body is filtered by your liver!