Pro and Con: Cold & Thermoplastic Polymerization

[TomZ]

"learning to use that word"

It is indeed an art form...

 

[rhicks3302]

We've used Ivocap for 25 years. ( I bought my first system from Degussa). The pre-mixed capsules means that my technicians never have to handle/mix acrylic and the polymer/monomer ratio is consistent. Any closed-flask injection system virtually eliminates open bites. Ivocap is no different.

Ivocap cures in boiling water. The injector remains on the flask assembly during the curing cycle providing a constant 80psi on the acrylic capsule. As the acrylic cures, it shrinks, drawing new acrylic from the capsule, compensating for the shrinkage. I think this makes the finished product ultra-dense. If you get microcracks in an Ivocap denture, its waxed too thin. The cooling cycle is aprox 25 mins in tap water.

My boilout unit is from Kavo and it's about as automatic as a boilout system can be.

I don't begin to understand the chemistry involved here. My head was close to exploding reading some of the earlier posts Bottom line:No denture cracks during divesting. I don't need to spot grind the occlusion after processing. Teeth don't pop off and my good docs(good impressions) think an Ivocap denture fits better.

I'm the kind of guy that if someone showed me a better processing sytem, I be on it like a cop on a donut. No one has yet. 25 years of success with Ivocap doesn't lie.

 

[rhicks3302]

"learning to use that word"

It is indeed an art form...

The first step to learning to say "no" is to stop saying "yes" to the impossible.

I'm too old to work more than 40. I won't knock people who do. Maybe its not "work" for them.

 

[Tom Moore]

The first step to learning to say "no" is to stop saying "yes" to the impossible.

I'm too old to work more than 40. I won't knock people who do. Maybe its not "work" for them.

My hardest to break was "NO PROBLEM". If you tell them that long enough they will start the believe and wonder why you lied to them when it is one. I now say "That's a problem but we are great at solving problems". It much better to become know as the problem solver rather that the guy that never sees any.

Any part of your life that is out of balance will cause harm. God new to put orgasms into sex so we would know when to stop. If there are techs out there that think lab work is better than sex I need to come over and watch because someone it doing something very wrong

 

[TomZ]

The first step to learning to say "no" is to stop saying "yes" to the impossible.

I'm too old to work more than 40. I won't knock people who do. Maybe its not "work" for them.

I always comment. In my mind, silence is affirmation, and there is no way youll ever convince me that someone wants to work and sacrifice so much for 10, 20 30 or 40 years to be in business. Playing it off like one likes it, is just a way of coping with a ****ty situation.

Its sad and blows my mind when I speak to technicians at dental shows across the country and they are nervously looking at their watches so they can get back to the lab and work till 2am because they took a Saturday afternoon off to get education and some social time. Doesnt anyone realize we are on the supply side of the supply and demand chain? If your worth your weight in technical ability, clients covet you, not abuse you!

Im sorry but cheap, ****ty paying clients come with a mindset that one projects and accepts...

never mind...:wacko:

 

[rhicks3302]

Its sad and blows my mind when I speak to technicians at dental shows across the country and they are nervously looking at their watches so they can get back to the lab and work till 2am because they took a Saturday afternoon off to get education and some social time. Doesnt anyone realize we are on the supply side of the supply and demand chain? If your worth your weight in technical ability, clients covet you, not abuse you!

It goes back to that conversation we had a while back. We control how we are perceived. That guy that wanders the exhibit hall with his loops on and plaster on his shoes checking margins on sample cases is probably that 80 hour/week guy with ****ty paying clients. Educate yourself, look and act like a professional and there's a good chance you'll be treated like one.

Working all the time when you have a family is seriously out of balance. We never saw my dad when we were growing up because he was a "company man". I decided a long time ago that wasn't going to be me.

If some of my laboratory technologist brothers want to work all the time, cool.
To each his own. Just not me.

What was this thread about?

 

[AJEL]

Well Dr I start 0600 and have been working till 0200 for several months now. I took off 1/2 day this Sunday to catch a service. If you pull a technician off the bench to look at every little patient complaint, your production will show it. Communication is a challenge I tottaly agree, I just stopped doing work for 2 young DDS who know it all (I've only been working in labs since 67) I was sending 70% of what they thought were great models back, and now of course they say 5rew U about paying their bill, (I've just finished filling out the small claims forms, & will have a buddy at the Sheriffs office deliver the summons next week. They R over 60days, I'm not in a good mood with sleep deprivation lately, & a migraine.)

Wow..1967 and you still work on 4 hrs of sleep, work 6.5 days a week, and have to work with disrespectful clients who dont pay and dont give you time to maintain a quality level??
Sorry but
AJ-Your a poster child for everything businesses (labs) should avoid.

Tom You are so right, I've made some poor business & personal choices & had some medical situations and have to try to work my way out of them. I don't know any other way. Tonight I took off 2 hrs & went to a CERT meeting at the firestation nice training on hazmat.

Im sorry but cheap, ****ty paying clients come with a mindset that one projects and accepts...

True and it took me over a month to decide they weren't worth trying to help. I'm getting to old to teach this kind of client, most of my customers are pretty good, I just have to say no to unscheduled repairs like U pm before.

 

[AJEL]

I did that for 30 years and it added at least 15 years to my actual age. The work was never the big problem it was the stress I put on myself by not imposing limits and learning the word NO. The other person is ever happy to hear NO but that is the big part of learning to use that word.

Thanks Tom I am starting to get a bity better at the no word but still must work, I don't have others to help & don't get the big bucks like Z does. The only thing I outsource is frames, and not off shore. I've had 2 falls this year & sometime my organizing and scheduling gets a little out of sorts, thus distracted I have to make up the distraction by working late. As Z suggested in PM I have started to not accept same day relines they just blow your day apart, but I still can't get 5 days for one.

 

[AJEL]

Sunday to catch a service I expect you mean Christian church service? yes.


I have the Nevin
Model 5400? How do you (really) like it? What are its' quirks, if any, other than cost?
I got mine used, almost had a Kavo but was out bid at an auction.

Dimetharylaate ethylene glycol activator is more common on European Ce PMMA, not on any Densply, I'm not sure about Diamond D ask cdr50 he was on the development team for Diamond D.

PMMA & the nylons cure completely differently possibly contact Kris S he was one of the developers for the CDM nylon & acetal system I have a CDM injection system. Those mostly are melted and injected, the newer materials are not as moisture sensitive as the older.
PMMA is a chemical reaction, if I was to redu my PMMA I would go with the Ivocap. I do have a Astrton vinyl injection system that I use on occasion.

 

[droberts]

Doctor,

Here are photos of my lab. It is set-up for removable prosthesis. Trying to offer you some help with what space you may need to fabricate the prosthesis you have mentioned. I have more room than needed,but someday may fill it. Never under estimate your space needed. Dont put your tech in the closet Keep in mind, I am only using one type of processing here, ( Ivocap Injection). You mentioned doing Flexibles, etc. You would need more space. To have your tech (1) going chair side, doing repairs, set-ups, and processing and working 6 days a week. He wont last 2 weeks. As for the photos, the tech has to have equipment they can work with to keep production moving. Trying to just get by wont cut it. More time, less money. Suction, Benches, lathes, chairs, Vacuum Investor, polishing unit, boilout unit etc. Articulators? Having a Panadent, Denar, Kavo. The Stratos is my favorite, due to I have a technique that works well with I and my clients. In your case, your the doctor so you and your tech can pick. Set the lab up practical, that the tech is not running from room to room, and have plenty of lighting. Hope this helps to give you an idea or a baseline to start from. Good Luck on your adventure

 

[AJEL]

Wow that is beautiful, why is it so many of us use a hydrocal 105 color on the walls? 10 injectors now that is investment, I noticed a sandblaster cabinet, I use one with a Chicago Air scribe, (have 2 1 with the chisel 1 with the micropoint to easily get around attachments, & salvage some analogues without damaging them. I found the litle cabinets from "The Container Store" I see U went with the red I went with the White with same mix, I sometimes wish I had just gone with the big trays only. I noticed only yellow pans, I have been using the old standard Yellow Denture, Red repair or rush, White implant & blue partial's, purple brux or ortho cases.when I started to do flexables I bought some Orange for them. I guess I just need color to easily search. Wow that is a beautiful set-up, (I like the status 100 for 3I, and mostly use pin but I have gone to Keystone mags for me easier Articulation. I better get back to my old COE bench, ovr slept. Just noticed I like the plastic delivery boxes I see U have Blue I ordered DR's(Dental Resourse not DDS) flame Orange in 1985 and some of them are still in use, I have since of course reordered cardbord is just to germy.

 

[drm313mac]

AJEL,

1. Vinyl injection: There are many systems out there, and most seem to advocate the TCS system as the best, for injection and polymerization, over Astron, Flexite, and such. Personally, the finest I have yet found, to me, is the CDM Flex Press. It is fully automatic, works with many different systems, is fully programmable.

Is it for partials only, or can full dentures be made with this?

CDM materials, are they correct for full dentures, or are they too flexible, to the point of not being retained?

Regarding flexible removables, whether partials or completes, with all this flexibility, how well are the teeth retained?
[No, I will not be using porcelain teeth, partly for this reason, partly due to their destruction of bone. Also, I believe in cutting a retention groove or hole, something learned from dental school]

Or, is TCS still the best, for the flexibles?

Ivoclar Ivocap:
1. Is it only for PMMA? That is, can it be used for others as well? Or is it for PMMA only, as it does not reach sufficient temperatures for nylon use?

2. Is it possible to increase (slowing down) the cooling time? For example, keeping the water temperature high, artificially? In engineering, very delayed cooling results in better flexibility as well as in less stress fractures.

And finally, the final question, for now. IF I understand this correctly, regarding nylons the CDM is the most programmable, though many believe the TCS is the overall best curing unit.
For PMMA, if I am reading what you have stated correctly, the Ivoclar Ivocap is THE best.
Therefore, is there one single system out there, that works with both PMMA AND the nylon/super flexibles, AND does this one machine do the boilout, injection, pressure, polymerization, cool-down, all-in-one, without having to transfer from one unit to another?
To a degree, I do not see too much an issue with boilout, then transferring to another unit which does all the rest.

What I am driving at, what good is the Nevin Pneumatic Press, if I must then release the pressure to transfer the flask to the curing unit? Do I not want continuous pressure and temperature from the injection phase through polymerization and cooling?

It would seem the Ivoclar does it all, regarding PMMA, and the CDM does it all, regarding nylon-based. Correct?

All for now, and again, I sincerely thank you.

David

 

[AJEL]

The Dentsply Sucess system would like to say they have all the answers for you, but I'm not a big supporter . The TSC Products Catalog has the furnace built in and a simple dial toadjust the temperature but otherwise use your own timers and push the buttonswhen U want something to happen. The CDM Flex Press by CDM Dental. is fully programable but any furnace ststem would get to hot for PMMA. The TCS, CDM or Flexipress all can inject Acetal which is extremely strong and I have used for overdentures (Spereoflex, presiclick, ERA Hader clips, ASC52. but it is not relinable. I have done a few Flexite MD cases with it but had to extend the hold time & up the pressure to do so, talk with Sol about the times & temperatures.
All flexables require a tooth center hole & side diatorics there is no chemical bond!
You can always leave the case to bench set the CDM machine has a hold time and generally nylon or acetals cool quickly after you shoot them.
And don't forget to get your technician a nice air scribe. Paleo Tools

 

[drm313mac]

AJEL,

Flexibles: It comes down to nylon vs acetyl.
1. Are not you the one that stated some are having allergies to the acetyl?
2. I know they work great with partials, but how well do they do with complete dentures? If too flexible, will the denture still retain intra-orally?

I was planning on the JSP Model MO1260 Pneumatic chisel kit. Is there a better unit? I was also planning on the Handler Atlas Flask Ejector 44A, though in retrospect, I am not certain how well it does on other brands and styles of flasks.

What is the best closed flask? I will assume the closed flask is better, as the bite will not be opened, or so I have read. I want not only the overall better flasks for the better denture, but also the better flasks are they are easier to use, for the techs who will be using them day in day out.

The Dentsply Sucess system would like to say they have all the answers for you
I have no intent of doing further business with Dentsply, or Schein for that matter. With their business practices they are shafting the techs, as well as delivering lesser quality to the dentists, all the while taking advantage of the lower-paid techs in those countries. From a business perspective it is logical, from an ethical one it is not.

Again, the TCS advertises for partial dentures only. Can nylons or acetyls be used for complete dentures, with high success?

Is the Ivoclar system the ONLY unit which for PMMA that injects, polymerizes, and cools, all-in-one?
1. For the convenience of the tech
2. Once the material is injected and under pressure, I believe the resultant denture is better if it remains under the same pressure until fully cured and cooled. Single use systems will boil out (not an issue here if single use),then we inject hot material, then we transfer this hot flask to a compression system but we want it to remain hot, then to the hot water (or other solution) for complete curing and cool-down.
From a materials engineering perspective, at least from injection through compression in one unit yields the better end-product. Correct?

 

[drm313mac]

droberts,

I am looking at your pictures, and therefore gave some questions.

#2, the white unit on the far right, what is it, and what is it used for?

#3, the red and white unit, what is it, and what is it used for?
Also, the beige unit next to it, what is it, and what is it used for?

#5, That is a Stratos 100 articulator?
The white unit upon a higher shelf, what is it, and what is it used for?
The metal stand-alone in the center, with electronics on it, what is it? A boil out? Or is that a steamer?
If that is a boil out, what then are the two smaller units on the shelf, to the right?
Above all, a fume hood? I was going to have the processing in a closed room, vented to the outside.
Off in the corner and then down below, these are 11 Ivocap systems?
With Ivoclar systems, why do you have the large manual clamp?

#6, the large unit to the left barely visible, what is it, and what is it used for?
A 12" Ray Foster trimmer? 1/2 or 3/4 HP? I am looking at the Renfert 1 & 3/4 HP 12" wet/dry unit. Some advocate the dry grinding, due to model distortion, but is this really an issue with removable models using at least Type III stone?
The metal bins on the wall, I thought were plaster bins, until I saw the electrical cords to them. Therefore, I have no idea what they are.
The white unit next to the metal bins, I know I have seen this unit before, but do not recall where. Therefore, what is it? A Hydro-colloid dispenser?
Articulators to the right; one appears to be a Stratos 100, the other a 200?

#7, most important of all, supplies, completed cases, and your private office.

My clinical and business area is just under 3,200 SF, with four surgical ops, 9 non-surgical, an open area dedicated to the panoramic w/ tomography, two ADA customer toilets, business area and waiting room, and the server room (firewall room).
Adjoining that area is an additional 2,000 SF, what used to be another medical office. It will have my office, a large staff lounge, 5 lab rooms for the techs where each can (easily) hold 3 techs, 2 ADA-compliant staff toilets, a janitor closet, a sterilization room, a large open area for model pouring and grinding and polishing, and an enclosed and sealed room vented to the outside for burn-out and injection and polymerization and cooling. Each room is well ventilated and lit, and the work spaces, especially workstations, will have dedicated lighting as well.
Beneath much of this is a 4,000 SF dry basement, walkout. For good weather, there is a nice picnic area outside, enclosed and private.

Duties: I will have more than one tech, am planning on 2 each of two shifts (and I work both shifts). That is, 2 are on Mon - Wed, 2 for Thur - Sat, and each day is 11 hours. Once busy enough, they can work as many days as they want, even Sundays.

I was planning on suction at workstations and at the lathes, plus whole room unit near the model pouring, for all the dust.

Articulator, undecided between Stratos 100 & 200. I am old-school and used to my (ancient) Hanau w/ facebow.

I was planning on a Renfert vacuum investor, using compressed air.

What is the beast and easiest closed flask? Or do I need different flasks for PMMA & flexibles?

Why would I require a sandblaster?

 

[CShof]

I know this is off topic but your comment on sandblasters made me think of shellblasters. We used walnut shells I believe and they are awesome for cleaning up dentures. Quickly removes any stone left behind after processing and works great on those gunky repairs with the caked on nastiness. That and a laser welder are the two biggest things I miss about my previous lab. Something to think about.

 

[droberts]

droberts,

I am looking at your pictures, and therefore gave some questions.

#2, the white unit on the far right, what is it, and what is it used for?

It is a sandblaster using aluminum oxide and glass beads. Used for prepping bars and partials.

#3, the red and white unit, what is it, and what is it used for?

Silicon duplicator. Used for bar cases, acrylic partials, surgical guides etc.
Also, the beige unit next to it, what is it, and what is it used for?

Is a light curing unit from Ivoclar. Curing opaques and sometimes light cured materila for surgical guides.

#5, That is a Stratos 100 articulator?
No, its a 200. all the rest of mine are 300's.
The white unit upon a higher shelf, what is it, and what is it used for?
Bego Steamer used for cleaning anything in the lab.
The metal stand-alone in the center, with electronics on it, what is it? A boil out? Or is that a steamer? Kavo Boilout
If that is a boil out, what then are the two smaller units on the shelf, to the right? Ivocap curing system and cool down tank.
Above all, a fume hood? I was going to have the processing in a closed room, vented to the outside. You can do that. Just more convienent all in one room. Also vents any other acrylic fumes that I may have in there as well.
Off in the corner and then down below, these are 11 Ivocap systems?
Yes, I have actually 12 but can hook 11 up at one time. I have found to
be really productive with this system, the more the better. Once the cases are injected, it all time allotted from that point. No packing 2-4 times, very minimal distortion, and consistent. I may have made a comment somewhere on here, that I do no post equilibrating after processing.
With Ivoclar systems, why do you have the large manual clamp?
You need the manual press to place the flask in the holders for processing.

#6, the large unit to the left barely visible, what is it, and what is it used for?
A 12" Ray Foster trimmer? 1/2 or 3/4 HP? I am looking at the Renfert 1 & 3/4 HP 12" wet/dry unit. Some advocate the dry grinding, due to model distortion, but is this really an issue with removable models using at least Type III stone?
The metal bins on the wall, I thought were plaster bins, until I saw the electrical cords to them. Therefore, I have no idea what they are.
The white unit next to the metal bins, I know I have seen this unit before, but do not recall where. Therefore, what is it? A Hydro-colloid dispenser?
Articulators to the right; one appears to be a Stratos 100, the other a 200?

#7, most important of all, supplies, completed cases, and your private office.

My clinical and business area is just under 3,200 SF, with four surgical ops, 9 non-surgical, an open area dedicated to the panoramic w/ tomography, two ADA customer toilets, business area and waiting room, and the server room (firewall room).
Adjoining that area is an additional 2,000 SF, what used to be another medical office. It will have my office, a large staff lounge, 5 lab rooms for the techs where each can (easily) hold 3 techs, 2 ADA-compliant staff toilets, a janitor closet, a sterilization room, a large open area for model pouring and grinding and polishing, and an enclosed and sealed room vented to the outside for burn-out and injection and polymerization and cooling. Each room is well ventilated and lit, and the work spaces, especially workstations, will have dedicated lighting as well.
Beneath much of this is a 4,000 SF dry basement, walkout. For good weather, there is a nice picnic area outside, enclosed and private.

Duties: I will have more than one tech, am planning on 2 each of two shifts (and I work both shifts). That is, 2 are on Mon - Wed, 2 for Thur - Sat, and each day is 11 hours. Once busy enough, they can work as many days as they want, even Sundays. It will be interesting as to what you have to offer them. And the consistency of the work from each to provide quality workmanship for you and your patients.

I was planning on suction at workstations and at the lathes, plus whole room unit near the model pouring, for all the dust. Suction is a must, I preferred to have one unit for the main benches that is located in a closet.

Articulator, undecided between Stratos 100 & 200. I am old-school and used to my (ancient) Hanau w/ facebow.

I was planning on a Renfert vacuum investor, using compressed air.
You'll need to locate an good area for the compressor, to keep the noise down. Also keep in mind if you are using Ivocap that you need a compressor with volume. So that in case you were to use the shell blaster and have cases injected that it does not draw back from the other. I have a 7hp 80 gal that was purchased at Lowes. No problems what so ever.

What is the beast and easiest closed flask? Or do I need different flasks for PMMA & flexibles? Yes, totally different systems.

Why would I require a sandblaster?

The blue unit up right in the one room is a shellblaster. I wouldnt work without one.

 

[drm313mac]

droberts;

Silicone Duplicator:
1. Exactly how is this used?
2. Assuming I must have one as well, which is the best one, longest lasting and easiest for the tech to use?

While I did not ask this before, to the right of the silicone duplicator and the light cure, in the corner, is that a vacuum former?
If so, do I really need one? I mean, in private practice I used one for night-guards for the bruxers, as well as for the mouth guards for the athletes. My son uses one for full-contact martial arts.

Why the Stratos 200 and 300's? The 100 will fit most denture patients, will it not? My (ancient) Hanau I used for the non-hinge type TMJ, "C" or "S" closure, and general excursive movements.

Is the steamer used often?
If so, which is the best steamer?

Your Kavo boil-out: Why did you go with Kavo, as compared to the Nevin, or the Astron, or the larger sink-based Handler units?
I could not find the Kavo boil-outs. Are they stiil being made?
Which unit is most durable?
Which is better; the boil-out run by natural gas or the electric? The Astron advertises no moving parts, therefore nothing to break down. My sterilizers were electric, and they all broke down (heat and humidity are not good for electronic circuit boards).

The large manual press: Why not use the TSC or Nevin air-driven hydraulic presses, pre-set? Is this manual system better, for some reason?

Why have so many Ivoclar injectors? My point is, after injection and compression, is not the flask then placed into the hot water curing unit?
The curing and cool-down then that is the longest part of the cycle?
Cannot the curing system hold several flasks?

Picture #6, the larger white unit on the left (barely visible),is this the air filtration system?

Again, picture #6, what are the large metal bins on the wall?
Next to these metal bins, what is the white unit on the wall?

My compressor I will place in the basement, in an enclosed room, for noise purposes. The unit I was considering is the DCI McKesson DC Series Oil-less 10-user. Yes, I would greatly prefer purchasing a huge commercial unit (Ingersol-Rand) such as sold by Tractor Supply, 80+ gallon, 2+ heads, filtered air. (1),it is cheaper, (2) the volume of the tank and therefore the volume of the air is substantially better than the standard dental units and so it will work less and last longer.

I thank you.

 

[drm313mac]

CShof;

Two now have mentioned the shellblaster (over the sandblaster) as critical. Why? What uses are there for this device, more so than for the sandblaster?
Is it used for removal of stone from the completed denture?
Is it less damaging to the denture?

 

[cdtwade]

CShof;

Two now have mentioned the shellblaster (over the sandblaster) as critical. Why? What uses are there for this device, more so than for the sandblaster?
Is it used for removal of stone from the completed denture?
Is it less damaging to the denture?

It compensates for sloppy processing.