Printing with the ProJet 1200

CoolHandLuke

CoolHandLuke

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did CAP ever manage to get a handle on these things ?
 
CAD-CAM Jedi

CAD-CAM Jedi

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Its not just CAP. Most suppliers of the Projet 1200 are overwhelmed with unhappy customers. We had over 20 failed prints, and multiple cartridges we went through before we figured out a preferred method for ourselves. ALso they have new materials available now such as Visijet FTX Cast which is really nice for pressing.
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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i never had any "failed" prints. what exactly does that mean?
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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Is your dental lab thinking of purchasing the ProJet 1200? The learning curve is short and easy, but there are a few things that the operator should know before starting their first print job. Read the full article here:

10 Things You’ll Need to Know Before Printing with the ProJet 1200
i take it you work at WhipMix? some of those "need to know" items are rather obvious dont you think? that list could be made a bit more accurate instead of generic. doesnt sound like the research was put in to know exactly how the 1200 works.
 
C

charles007

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i never had any "failed" prints. what exactly does that mean?
It means you followed direction rather than reading manual after screw-ups

When all else fails, read directions.. that my Golden Rule... lol
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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It means you followed direction rather than reading manual after screw-ups

When all else fails, read directions.. that my Golden Rule... lol
reading the manual takes care of maybe 8 of the 10 items in the whipmix article as well. lol
 
CAD-CAM Jedi

CAD-CAM Jedi

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So by "failed prints", I mean a few things. The first is we had an issue where the bottom build pad would cure in the Visijet cartridge, and that would cause the rest of the print to either fall into the cartridge or, it would just cure in the cartridge. The second problem we had is that any restorations we had set in the center of the build tray would fall off at some point in the print and would just be laying in the cartridge when we went to take the print out. No matter how many sprues we put (and trust me, we were putting a lot of sprues, almost 9-10 on certain restorations) it would fall off and be resting in the cartridge by the end of the print. Lastly, this problem wasn't necessarily with the printer as much as it was the Visijet FTX Green material, or our investing and pressing method, but we were having our eMax restorations come out with a lot of porosity's and distorted margins. This was remedied by modifying our burnout times, as well as temperature. We recently started using the Visijet FTX Cast which is the light green material, and it works great. It is much softer than the other FTX Green material, and it leaves no burnout residue. It actually has wax in its composition, rather than just being a full resin like the FTX Green. 3DSystems released an update in the past two months which after installed solved most of these issues. The updated included thicker sprues, as well as support for the FTX Cast material which as also just recently released.
i never had any "failed" prints. what exactly does that mean?
i take it you work at WhipMix? some of those "need to know" items are rather obvious dont you think? that list could be made a bit more accurate instead of generic. doesnt sound like the research was put in to know exactly how the 1200 works.
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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So by "failed prints", I mean a few things. The first is we had an issue where the bottom build pad would cure in the Visijet cartridge, and that would cause the rest of the print to either fall into the cartridge or, it would just cure in the cartridge. The second problem we had is that any restorations we had set in the center of the build tray would fall off at some point in the print and would just be laying in the cartridge when we went to take the print out. No matter how many sprues we put (and trust me, we were putting a lot of sprues, almost 9-10 on certain restorations) it would fall off and be resting in the cartridge by the end of the print. Lastly, this problem wasn't necessarily with the printer as much as it was the Visijet FTX Green material, or our investing and pressing method, but we were having our eMax restorations come out with a lot of porosity's and distorted margins. This was remedied by modifying our burnout times, as well as temperature. We recently started using the Visijet FTX Cast which is the light green material, and it works great. It is much softer than the other FTX Green material, and it leaves no burnout residue. It actually has wax in its composition, rather than just being a full resin like the FTX Green. 3DSystems released an update in the past two months which after installed solved most of these issues. The updated included thicker sprues, as well as support for the FTX Cast material which as also just recently released.
okay i never ran into any of those issues except the burnout one. had to go to a rather slow multi stage burnout to address that issue.
do you like the new FTX Cast material? i havent tried it but anything has to be better than the FTX Green resin material
 
gdallc

gdallc

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I have a Asiga Pico. You can and will get the same print problems if NOT CALIBRATED PROPERLY INCLUDING SETTINGS The prints stick to the teflon build trays and that will cause all of the problems listed above. One or two larger supports work much better than a bunch of little ones also print orientation is key so that you can have fewer supports. I don't know if you can adjust all of the exposure settings on the Projet 1200 like I can on the Asiga? I love my printer but it took a long time to get things right and every time I buy new resin I usually have to adjust settings again. Most people are going to become frustrated before they get things right and the printer will probably end up collecting dust, but I use mine everyday.
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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I have a Asiga Pico. You can and will get the same print problems if NOT CALIBRATED PROPERLY INCLUDING SETTINGS The prints stick to the teflon build trays and that will cause all of the problems listed above. One or two larger supports work much better than a bunch of little ones also print orientation is key so that you can have fewer supports. I don't know if you can adjust all of the exposure settings on the Projet 1200 like I can on the Asiga? I love my printer but it took a long time to get things right and every time I buy new resin I usually have to adjust settings again. Most people are going to become frustrated before they get things right and the printer will probably end up collecting dust, but I use mine everyday.
i considered the Asiga and ended up with the 1200
 
capickettcdt

capickettcdt

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Luke and All,
We can’t speak to the current relationship between CAP and 3D systems, however Whip Mix is in full swing with 3D Systems and the Projet 1200 printer. Earlier software issues have been overcome and the use of Formula 1 investment, when the technique is followed has reduced or eliminated the cracking and fining in castings (you can’t treat the FTX green resin material like wax. Remember solid plastic sprues and patterns in the 80’s??) 3D Systems has just introduced a new material FTX cast,which is more like a wax and we are in process with Beta Testing for accuracy. We know that the burn out is much less stressful on investments than the current VisiJet FTX green resin material and have had smooth successful castings. We should have the new material in stock shortly with recommended procedures. For those who have the ProJet 1200, the use of the new material does require a software update. And Side Show Bob...the Blog…of course….was meant to be generic. If you have specific questions about getting involved with the ProJet Printers, both for patterns and models please contact our technical Support department at [email protected] or 800-626-5651 x 1437.
 
CAD-CAM Jedi

CAD-CAM Jedi

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@sidesh0wb0b, I love the new material. It burns out great. Much easier to manipulate and add wax, etc before burning out. Another WhipMix employee just posted some pics of their tests done with it. Seems like Whip-Mix really wants to sell their Projet's. ;)
 
capickettcdt

capickettcdt

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We do want to sell the ProJets as we think it is a great economic addition to a digital lab...especially for a smaller lab. Here is another field report just in:
Here is a field report from Ed Folger at St. Mary Digital Dental Lab on the new FTX Cast material in use with the ProJet 1200 chair side 3D printer from 3D systems/Whip Mix Corporation.
Things I like; the new software updates, new preference settings for VisiJet Green material, the new protective cover for the VisiJet Green material and the new FTX Cast Material. The FTX Cast material creates fewer to nonexistent fining!
There is a learning curve with the new Cast material compared to the original VisiJet material. This is a wax type material so the Liquid powder ratio needs adjustment and it not as strong as the original resin material so care when removing patterns from the build plate is necessary. I prefer not to use the automatic placement of supports as they are larger and I feel it places too many. I use a fine diamond disc to remove the supports. I cast a single unit and an Implant over casting and no adjustments were needed.

Sideshow Bob....I hope that you are finding the same successes. Please let us all know how things progress!!!
 
CAD-CAM Jedi

CAD-CAM Jedi

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Also, I noticed longer print times with the FTX Cast material. It increases the time by about 15-20 min. @capickettcdt, what is the "new protective cover" and do you guys sell it?
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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@sidesh0wb0b, I love the new material. It burns out great. Much easier to manipulate and add wax, etc before burning out. Another WhipMix employee just posted some pics of their tests done with it. Seems like Whip-Mix really wants to sell their Projet's. ;)
thats fantastic news!

have you been able to tweak in settings for proper margins, fit, contacts, and occlusion? if this all lines up well its a bonus for this 1200.
mine is just sitting here, so much going on that I have yet to get everything dialed in....and its eating me up having a $5k paper weight sitting around collecting dust.
 
CAD-CAM Jedi

CAD-CAM Jedi

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@sidesh0wb0b I mean there wasn't much tweaking that needed to be done when the switch from FTX Green to Cast was made. First we had to update PR Geomagic Software and the firmware for the printer, and then you just go into preferences and change the material. The shrink compensation and other parameters get changed to compensate for the material. Other than that it printed fine. Be sure to make sure that the printer is on a stable, vibration free surface. We had a failed print due to vibrations from our air compressors causing the printer to vibrate slightly and misprint. I know what you mean by the $5k paper weight. When we were using only the FTX Green material, the eMax techs were so upset with the resin that they asked to switch back to milled wax....so we were still milling wax, even though we had a dedicated wax printer.
 
GoldRunner

GoldRunner

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I tried to love this little printer but........We used the printer for a few months and got average results. The fits were excellent, but there was excessive distortion on the occlusions and loss of detail. Not great for copings because they came out about twice as thick as they should have been. It would produce nice margins that would be difficult to mill. Full contour crowns required excessive spacing. There is no good reason why you should have to design a FC crown way out of occlusion to get the results you want. Also the material was difficult to burn out properly. Thick patterns or large bridges would split molds even with slow burnout.

Maybe the new FTX cast will help, and maybe software improvements will solve the Z axis problems. That is a lot of maybes for $5.5k. Meanwhile we bought our second mill (DWX 50) and get excellent fits, superb detail, and fast wax burnout.

If you need an "inexpensive" output solution or a backup and don't expect great results then maybe this is the printer for you. It is not bad, just not great. I hope they work the "challenges" out. I'd definitely buy a "second generation" printer in this class and production capability.
 
Isbill lab

Isbill lab

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I tried to love this little printer but........We used the printer for a few months and got average results. The fits were excellent, but there was excessive distortion on the occlusions and loss of detail. Not great for copings because they came out about twice as thick as they should have been. It would produce nice margins that would be difficult to mill. Full contour crowns required excessive spacing. There is no good reason why you should have to design a FC crown way out of occlusion to get the results you want. Also the material was difficult to burn out properly. Thick patterns or large bridges would split molds even with slow burnout.

Maybe the new FTX cast will help, and maybe software improvements will solve the Z axis problems. That is a lot of maybes for $5.5k. Meanwhile we bought our second mill (DWX 50) and get excellent fits, superb detail, and fast wax burnout.

If you need an "inexpensive" output solution or a backup and don't expect great results then maybe this is the printer for you. It is not bad, just not great. I hope they work the "challenges" out. I'd definitely buy a "second generation" printer in this class and production capability.[/QUOTE

What wax pucks are you using? Are you milling wax for you metal copings??
 
N

nicenice19

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May I ask where you all have purchased the FTX Cast material? Nobody seems to be selling it just yet. Thanks in advance.
 
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