Please Help with this answer

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A+Precision

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Hi everyone!! New here but def not new to this wonderful crazy hectic sometimes I'd rather be running around on fire business......LOLBanghead
Truly new you guys help with this question and would like to get opinions and actual technical facts. I myself have what i think is a solid reasoning behind my thoughts on it. On the other hand my other half/also a denture tech has his what to me does not make sense opinion on it. We have a lab in Louisiana and was showing a new hire traditional flasking and packing when the new hire told me after boiling out the cases she had been scrapping away the excess stone that flows out the flask all around it. Not just the loose pieces and not the edges around the model that's in the bottom. The stone that comes out all around when the second half is being done because of the 2 parts of the flask not closing together all the way. Like literally scrapping that from the edges all around the 2 parts of the flask. OK, so that's basically my question..... In my mind i say that is not correct to do and was actually taught that 20 something years ago in a flasking class given by a Ivoclar tech. See 2 me that stone is now the new surface instead of the actual metal surface. Easy to understand in my mind......LOL May be 100% wrong though. On the crazy a** other end the old man is telling me that don't matter one bit. That the pressure is in the middle of the flask and so on. That to me has nothing to do with the fact that you have now broken away the new surface that is closed flush together. Sorry first post is so long and maybe a lil over explained but I'm truly trippin he don't understand the concept behind what i am seeing in the issue. Or like i said maybe i am 10% wrong. PLEASE HELP
 
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FASTFNGR

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When you flask the denture it does not cover the whole entire inner side. So a lot of the surrounding inside the flask are touching regardless wether you scrape the side or not. So there is no change in the VDO or VDR if that is your concern. Scraping also does not do anything except taking out loose plaster.
 
JMN

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Hi everyone!! New here but def not new to this wonderful crazy hectic sometimes I'd rather be running around on fire business......LOLBanghead
Truly new you guys help with this question and would like to get opinions and actual technical facts. I myself have what i think is a solid reasoning behind my thoughts on it. On the other hand my other half/also a denture tech has his what to me does not make sense opinion on it. We have a lab in Louisiana and was showing a new hire traditional flasking and packing when the new hire told me after boiling out the cases she had been scrapping away the excess stone that flows out the flask all around it. Not just the loose pieces and not the edges around the model that's in the bottom. The stone that comes out all around when the second half is being done because of the 2 parts of the flask not closing together all the way. Like literally scrapping that from the edges all around the 2 parts of the flask. OK, so that's basically my question..... In my mind i say that is not correct to do and was actually taught that 20 something years ago in a flasking class given by a Ivoclar tech. See 2 me that stone is now the new surface instead of the actual metal surface. Easy to understand in my mind......LOL May be 100% wrong though. On the crazy a** other end the old man is telling me that don't matter one bit. That the pressure is in the middle of the flask and so on. That to me has nothing to do with the fact that you have now broken away the new surface that is closed flush together. Sorry first post is so long and maybe a lil over explained but I'm truly trippin he don't understand the concept behind what i am seeing in the issue. Or like i said maybe i am 10% wrong. PLEASE HELP
Greetings Earthling! Welcome!

While you are right, it doesn't matter.

Onky if stone was being removed from the negative of the waxup's representation would it matter.

Or if it was being removed from most the area around the waxup negative. As long as there are 'mating faces' untouched, it'll close to the same place.
 
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Great discussion. I’ve had the same discussion with other techs in the past. Personally if the flasks are fitting poorly enough that there’s a decent thickness of stone flash I leave it on there. If it’s thin enough to flake off I scrape it off. Technically however I think the flask halves should mate well enough to only allow minimal flash.
 
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Great discussion. I’ve had the same discussion with other techs in the past. Personally if the flasks are fitting poorly enough that there’s a decent thickness of stone flash I leave it on there. If it’s thin enough to flake off I scrape it off. Technically however I think the flask halves should mate well enough to only allow minimal flash.
I agree they should, but we've all seen flasks that look like they were on thd Mayfower and hand hammered into a vague flasklike shape. As long as the stone has a mating surface and you can have some metal guide that alignes the surfaces, it will work.

We just like to make it more complex than it really has to be as it sounds more sciency when we do. Should we scrape? Maaaaybe? Does it make enough difference to notide without NASA level gear? Probably not.

science_shirt_1_large.jpg
 
Doris A

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/handwaive
These aren't the flasks you're looking for.
You need to have metal to metal contact to prevent the stone from being crushed. I'm not saying it's likely, but it can happen if the case is cranked down too far in the press. I've seen it happen with a Nevin press, only once but what a mess that was.
 
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You need to have metal to metal contact to prevent the stone from being crushed. I'm not saying it's likely, but it can happen if the case is cranked down too far in the press. I've seen it happen with a Nevin press, only once but what a mess that was.
Quite true. Thank you for making it very clear for me. I didn't get that far woth the thiught experiment
 
model guy

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This one time, when I was younger and dumber, I was super proud of my gym gains and cranked down on a handler big boy press and ended up fracturing a bunch of porcelain teeth. Every now and then there will Be a denture that even though it is “bottomed” out in the flask, will still be slightly higher than the height of the flask. The third pour will flash over out of necessity. You will need to keep this to maintain the proper height. Live and learn.
 
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Scrape any excess stone off you can scrape. Keeps it out of your boil out unit when removing wax from opened flask halves. I have a electric pump with 4 spigots and don't need crap clogging up the pipes... I second earlier post that all the stone around the waxed denture in the flask will have flush contact and that 1/4" on the edge don't matter. If you are using #2 lab stone it's not gonna squirt out the edge after final set. Model thickness-- especially on uppers is of utmost importance. if Your palate is not thick enough (and sometimes even if it is if a jamoke places a wad of acrylic in the middle of the palate for 2nd pack) it can "blowout" under packing pressure even though there is investment stone between the model base and flask. If you remount to equilibrate after process and the model wobbles on the art. mount that happened.lol.
 
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Hand crank presses are destined to be inconsistent.... EVERY time. Like a box of chocalates... you never know what ur gunna get...
 
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Well thanks for all the answers. See the way this all came about is every case I’m finishing from the flasking somehow mysteriously the freaking bt is open about 7 tap-ins when usually I almost never have to touch the teeth when finishing. So we’re trying to see what’s being done differently. Cuz honestly they killin me (the finisher). That’s just one of the lil probs added to the long list. Like how you cover at least one tooth in acrylic every single time. I can’t get consistently correct. Oh but yes I can get consistently wrong! Thanks again you guys! Have a wonderful day all!!
 
TheLabGuy

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Get new flasks so your mind doesn't have to 'wonder' about such things and ask such questions.
 
Doris A

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Well thanks for all the answers. See the way this all came about is every case I’m finishing from the flasking somehow mysteriously the freaking bt is open about 7 tap-ins when usually I almost never have to touch the teeth when finishing. So we’re trying to see what’s being done differently. Cuz honestly they killin me (the finisher). That’s just one of the lil probs added to the long list. Like how you cover at least one tooth in acrylic every single time. I can’t get consistently correct. Oh but yes I can get consistently wrong! Thanks again you guys! Have a wonderful day all!!
There are a few things that can cause acrylic to cover a tooth.
1. The waxer didn't get all of the wax off of the tooth.
2. GLUE, if a tooth comes loose during boilout, never EVER put glue on the incisal or occusal surface, this will create a thin space between the investment and the tooth that fills in with acrylic. Always put 1 drop of glue on the facial or buccal surface of the tooth and make sure it goes completely down into the investment.
3. The tooth may float up a little during packing. But normally when this happens, they wind up way up in the denture.

I suspect this is a glue issue. When I became a technician one of the first things I had to do was go to glue school.

Now, on to the open bites that you're having to grind in. Since the person packing is a new hire, has she been trained on how to properly trial pack?
 
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Get new flasks so your mind doesn't have to 'wonder' about such things and ask such questions.
Spending money on new flasks is just pissing it into the wind. If you fill them with stone on each stage, they will have stone to stone contact. Old crappy flasks-- even mismatched-- or not completely closed during investing-- is not a problem. Inconsistent closure pressure or flasks that bind up (distorted posts) during packing is the problem. Buy lunch for the packers with the money (maybe twice) and walk through procedure while eating pizza. Everybody likes pizza. Have them sign off on a document-- that gives them some accountability. HAND
1581090864954.png
 
Smilestyler

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To the original post; I always remove the flakes so that they don’t wind up in the dentures. But in reference to ivocap, it must remain especially for the back half of the flask to reduce acrylic leakage.
 
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There are a few things that can cause acrylic to cover a tooth.
1. The waxer didn't get all of the wax off of the tooth.
2. GLUE, if a tooth comes loose during boilout, never EVER put glue on the incisal or occusal surface, this will create a thin space between the investment and the tooth that fills in with acrylic. Always put 1 drop of glue on the facial or buccal surface of the tooth and make sure it goes completely down into the investment.
3. The tooth may float up a little during packing. But normally when this happens, they wind up way up in the denture.

I suspect this is a glue issue. When I became a technician one of the first things I had to do was go to glue school.

Now, on to the open bites that you're having to grind in. Since the person packing is a new hire, has she been trained on how to properly trial pack?
 
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To the original post; I always remove the flakes so that they don’t wind up in the dentures. But in reference to ivocap, it must remain especially for the back half of the flask to reduce acrylic leakage.
Is flakes employees or stone? Please be more specific. I'm old.
 
JMN

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[...]
2. GLUE, if a tooth comes loose during boilout, never EVER put glue on the incisal or occusal surface, this will create a thin space between the investment and the tooth that fills in with acrylic. Always put 1 drop of glue on the facial or buccal surface of the tooth and make sure it goes completely down into the investment.
[...]
I suspect this is a glue issue. When I became a technician one of the first things I had to do was go to glue school.[...]
on SuperGlue I love Zap thin CA. Runs like water and gets into every crevice.

One of the hardest things to teach someone is CA use. Most people I see use it want to put it one or both of the mating surfaces and then put them together. This makes the parts *not* go together, but get near each other. The layer of glue will not get out of the way.

Put the parts together, where and how they belong, put a drop the size of a fairies tear at the meeting of the parts and then capillary action will draw it in between the parts.
If it is a long enough area, like a 2pc fracture, put multiple drops, but not one huge drop. Just let the material do the work.

Be one with the material, Grasshoppa.
 

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