Next Evolution in Zirconia: "Cube X 2, Imagine, ZZ Anterior

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charles007

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This year is turning out to be great for the Monolithic world of dental labs with new materials like CubeX2, Jensen's Imagine, and ZZ Prettau Anterior zirconia hitting the market soon. Now we have many choices of zirconia that is comparable to emax in translucency with twice the MPa of emax Cad and almost as strong as our regular zirconia. One great advantage in using these latest generation zirconia's is having extra strength on feather edge preps which can chip off near the margin using emax.
Now the question is, how do we price this new material "Wisely" to not loose a lot of our layered restorations and lose profits to the Monolithic crowd wanting the cheaper priced FCZ and or $99.00 BruxZir......
As you could already guess many doctors will find the latest generation of zirconia's more than acceptable and start using more Monloithic restorations instead of the usually prescribed pfz/pfm/ or layered emax.

Many of us old timers saw the handwriting on the wall when GW started advertising is every trade magazine with cheap prices. They took a restoration that takes around 100k in equipment to produce and almost over night created the $99.0 crown called the BruxZir.. One smart man to quickly dumb down lab prices and trying to get into every dentist office in the world. Its a free market, so my hats off to anyone who can make millions of dollars off of big vision ideas. Just hate to see out industry go down in flames because of one very large company. Sorry for the rant.... lol
I hope I'm wrong but I see another dumbing down of prices/profits if we don't price this material very wisely. Just because FCZ can be produced in an hour (labor) doesn't mean more profits for the lab, unless extra volume comes in the door.

Something to think about.
1. Will this new generation of zirconia lower our demand for layered zir. crowns, emax and pfms ?
2. Are you making higher profits per crown on emax/ pfms/pfz, compared to fcz ?
3. If we use these material correctly, color/stain very nicely, I bet my last dollar I will receive less layered crowns and my profits will drop per unit unless I price wisely.

Last week I talked to one of my good DLN friends and we seem to be on the same page on how to price Cube X / Imagine zirconia. Both of us think we should price anterior crowns at the same price as our PFZ and charge at least $15.00 + extra over regular FCZ posteriors.
Bicuspids bridges ?
Another possible problem is sintering these materials. This new generation of zirconia sinters lower than some of the regular zirconia so many labs will need to buy an extra sintering oven, depending on the brands of zirconia.
So, how do you see this panning out in your lab ? any Ideas ?

Beer Would like to hear from the silent techs over on "The Bridge" forum ! Now is your chance to join DLN and talk with the bad ass-techs lol
Charles
 
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charles007

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Almost forgot about Zublers new Concept ingot giving us more tools for our monolithic tool box.
Guess I will still need to buy expensive porcelain brushes a few more years........
 
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JohnWilson

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Anything we can make look more aesthetic will be charged for in my lab for as long as I have people willing to pay for it.

Here is how I see it

Standard Mono-zi 1200mpa while I have tried hard to make mine look better than the big boys there are certain shades that are impossible. My accounts pay about 30% more than national average for this restoration in my lab. They do this for their own reasons some I have created :) but most understand that this material will never look as good as LD.

LD MONO Stain and glaze just looks great in the mouth its predictable with my digital mill/press work load. Its a money maker

Cutback LD charged out at a 10% premium over S&G, I prefer to do MONO for obvious reasons but cover the added labor. Only about 20% of all my emax are cutback

New 600 to 700mpa ZI, still not enough experience with it to know what I will do but if it looks as good as EMAX I will charge the same as EMAX. It all depends on how predictable the shades are.

As for fully layered ZI its less than 1% in my lab and not viable product that I push I want it to go away, I try and not mention it. For micro cutbacks its about a $50 up charge on any unit, tooth or implant retained.
 
Gru

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From what we are seeing and all the info we're getting, the new zr lines will be highly esthetic, will cost more to produce than traditional zr and require high quality equipment. The fees here will be at or above mono LD since we will be offering a superior strength product which costs more to make, therefore anyone who prices it low better have a very high volume since it will be more expensive to produce.
 
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Interesting thread. I tend to think about what a product costs me to produce (labor/materials) and then add to that a number to cover overhead and profit.

I don't have a price point on Imagine yet - supposed to be getting a puck today, so we'll see what the relative material costs will be.

As for the labor, since I design and mill almost everything that goes thru the lab, my labor costs for this type of restoration will be in line with that of FCZs - except that I don't currently shade anything by hand, so I have to take that into consideration. Maybe I will price it between FCZs and eMax given that eMax requires additional labor in the form of investing/pressing/divesting. The one thing i think I have to take into consideration is shade consistency - with eMax i know what I'm getting from each ingot; shading zirconia by had is a little bit more of a crapshoot...
 
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charles007

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What I fear is labs charging about the same for CubeX as their regular fcz. These newer generation zirconia's are on another playing field and we shouldn't charge the same price. What will most likely happen is doctors will start requesting more monolithic restorations and labs will see a drop in profits. This material is comparable to emax and we should strongly consider pricing at the price level of emax.
I can easily see many doctors doing nothing but mono CubeX except on high demanding patients on single unit centrals. If priced much higher, that would be a dream lab and save on the cost of stocking porcelain. If priced to low, I see everything turning in to $99.00 crowns.. :arghh:
I don't want to see the bottom feeding labs growing, and I know that will happen eventually.
 
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charles007

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Interesting thread. I tend to think about what a product costs me to produce (labor/materials) and then add to that a number to cover overhead and profit.

I don't have a price point on Imagine yet - supposed to be getting a puck today, so we'll see what the relative material costs will be.

..
Yes these materials cost more but we must look at the total picture and how pricing different materials can change our labs.
Pressing ingots requires a lot less in equipment investment $$ than milling inhouse or outsourcing zirconia having a scanner only. But labs charge much less for FCZ than pressed emax. This theory of pricing doesn't make a dollars worth of sense. Pressing can be highly profitable but what if a lot of labs started charging $99.00 for emax ?
 
Labwa

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My two cents...im not sure where we can make this ZR fit. 600mpa and cant bond it. Why would you not use LD and get bond strength?
I have boxes of the cube in the lab and I think it looks great but which guys am I trying to convert...only time will tell for me I think.
 
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charles007

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Many doctors do not want to take the extra time to bond in crowns...
I bet a high percentage don't bond emax, and I've read that many times on DT
 
2thm8kr

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Many doctors do not want to take the extra time to bond in crowns...
I bet a high percentage don't bond emax, and I've read that many times on DT
We have been trying some stuff out here, certainly NOT a clinical study. We rarely bond anything any more and has been no increase in fractured crowns or crowns coming out.
They are using G cem, Fuji, and something else that I can't remember.
G cem being the favorite around here for easy clean up.
 
rkm rdt

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If I were to charge $99 for my fczs then I'd make damn sure I make it up somewhere else.
 
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charles007

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Go back to bed rkm, your sleep walking again .
You know damn well you Canadian's want even take a shade for less than $99.00 Laugh
 
CoolHandLuke

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if you are going to use new materials you can't be backpedaling by classifying it with old materials.

yes, people will question why you have 3 kinds of zirconia, but now you actually have concrete definition of differences that merit new pricing. you have a markedly different product that should reflect its price.

so don't worry.
 
NicelyMKV

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I am pricing mine in line with my emax equivalents. Higher than standard ZR for sure. I also will not offer it to the local labs I do some milling for. Not going to allow them to sell it cheap... At least not with my help...
 
ts4341

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Charge close to EMAX, it still takes skill, mills, sintering furnaces, materials and labor to produce excellent CubeX2 products. Get paid for your investment and skill!
 
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charles007

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I will probably give it a Sexy name, Use on all zirconia restorations, fcz/layer, for the first 30 days with no upcharge, then start billing out at Emax equivalent restoration prices.
If the so called fcz is to replace full gold crowns at a large savings to doctors, this new Evolution of zirconia is my new restorative material of choice to compete with Emax and remaining pfm users.

You know these new materials could be an alternative to press to zir and also a way of using micro-layering dentin or just layering enamels.
Having a more translucent zirconia opens up a lot of doors and advanced techniques to add value to our crowns.
 
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