Need some help understanding nightguards

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kenn

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Happy to grab someone remote beer / drink of choice for your time, looking for some experts in nightguards. Bonus points if you've done a lot of splints from intraoral scans. Just have tons of technical questions around materials, ideal scanning technique, etc.
 
JMN

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Greetings Earthling! Welcome!

Some of what you are asking, well most, comes down to with what and how are you wanting to make them.

There's wax and pack, wax and pour, doughsmash and grind, combinations of those... and that's before digits get discussed.

Were you staying fully digital and milling them? It'll eat gobs of mill time, 3+ hrs easy. Printing? Dunno if there's anything tht'll take the torture yet.

whatever way, glad to meet you. Wander over to the Indroduce yerself section if you like and get a few hellos if that's your style.
 
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kenn

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Will definitely make my way over to intro myself by the weekend :)

We're trying to focus on receiving exclusively digital cases, so was hoping to stay more on the milling and printing side of things. I'm not sure if I should recommend to my dentists to use always leaf gauge when they do their occlusion scans, or do the centric relation alignment myself? Luckily most of my dentists will try to do what I recommend, but they only do that because I avoid giving bad information and advice!

I just spent far too many hours on Spear and Google before I realized I should just ask here haha.
 
Chalky

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im happy to answer and give my opinion.... I mill a lot of splints! up to over 3000 now.
I do largely from models, have done plenty from scans, looked into printing options (but don't print... yet!!) and I construct a range of different types of splints to suit many extreme type pain, tmj or capsular disk issues.
 
2thm8kr

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im happy to answer and give my opinion.... I mill a lot of splints! up to over 3000 now.
I do largely from models, have done plenty from scans, looked into printing options (but don't print... yet!!) and I construct a range of different types of splints to suit many extreme type pain, tmj or capsular disk issues.
I'm curious to know your average milling time for a splint and are they full arch? Most of what we do would be considered a deprogrammer, but the patient's seem to love them. Mainly because of the freedom of movement (flat, no ramps at cuspud position) and the splint is unobtrusive compared to a full arch design. Plus, since the posterior teeth are out of occlusion bite strength is greatly diminished.

If we are doing a full arch splint, I prefer a mandibular design. I want a facebow and CR bite. I can get most, 90+% worked out virtually, but I like the models mounted to dial in all the excursive movements.

Are you using exocad for the software?

Sorry kenn, seems I am hijacking your post.:Hello:
 
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Happy to grab someone remote beer / drink of choice for your time, looking for some experts in nightguards. Bonus points if you've done a lot of splints from intraoral scans. Just have tons of technical questions around materials, ideal scanning technique, etc.
Sometimes things take less time to do it manually if you use the right material. Light cure dual material, 2 layers individually, from Dentsply and a couple other companies, soft on the inside and hard on the outside, cost $15 to $20 in about 30min. Just saying .
 
Chalky

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@2thm8kr... average milling time is about 1hr15 to 1hr30ish on our AG motion 2 mills, these are usually done in a 14mm or 16mm puck. I work with (actually my business partner) is an Oral Medicine Specialist and his niche is Oral Facial Pain. We make a lot of posterior plane splints on the mandibular arch. This design is essentially posterior blocks open to around about 5 or 6mm thickness, no anterior contact. This opens and relieves the joint and also takes out proprioception of anterior teeth. This is one of the most common designs we use for these Specialists. We also design Repositioning splints and stabilisation splints. I ALWAYS remount and calibrate on the articulator, hence why its a little cheaper to use models as opposed to scans... but this will change soon enough!
We use Amann Girrbach software and mills, so yes Exocad based software.
all splints are full arch so its usually 2 in a 98mm puck - sometimes 3 if we are lucky!!
I have been milling in PMMA and recently been making my own blanks in Clearsplint… which all my clients love (it tends to cover their impression discrepancies well!)
 
Chalky

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Sometimes things take less time to do it manually if you use the right material. Light cure dual material, 2 layers individually, from Dentsply and a couple other companies, soft on the inside and hard on the outside, cost $15 to $20 in about 30min. Just saying .
i'd love to find a dual laminate material that doesn't de-laminate over time and use... in my 25 years, im yet to find one!
 
Chalky

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Will definitely make my way over to intro myself by the weekend :)

We're trying to focus on receiving exclusively digital cases, so was hoping to stay more on the milling and printing side of things. I'm not sure if I should recommend to my dentists to use always leaf gauge when they do their occlusion scans, or do the centric relation alignment myself? Luckily most of my dentists will try to do what I recommend, but they only do that because I avoid giving bad information and advice!

I just spent far too many hours on Spear and Google before I realized I should just ask here haha.
in all honesty, we were looking exclusively at setting up our digital system for splint production in the beginning (about 3 years ago now)… at THAT time, I wasn't confident in the printed material options. I had anecdotal evidence from other lab guys (and a few honest sales reps) of 60 - 70% material failure within 3 to 6 months! printed materials becoming discoloured and developing severe cracking and becoming brittle very quickly. I know guys that entirely stopped making splints because of the remake and replacement rates... they were losing regular clients as a result of the unreliability! NOW, in my opinion, is a bit different... I think there are a few printable materials and several printers on the market that would be a much cheaper machinery outlay and ongoing production option. Milling splints is very costly in my opinion! its not just the materials, but more so the cost of cutting tools... you will eat through cutting tools!! this is a very big production expense.
Most definitely weigh up all of your options and look into all different avenues that will suit your needs... but don't overlook printing! Just do some research into the materials, go to labs and see for yourself BEFORE you buy any equipment!
 
CoolHandLuke

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milled a handful in clear polycarbonate as a test; with polycarbonate theres a good risk of cooking your tooling by melting it into the plastic and instant snapping as the axes move after that. if i had to do it over, i'd change a few things.
 
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Sometimes things take less time to do it manually if you use the right material. Light cure dual material, 2 layers individually, from Dentsply and a couple other companies, soft on the inside and hard on the outside, cost $15 to $20 in about 30min. Just saying .
Agreed Dentsply Heat and Seat best stuff ever in my opinion. But always on back order.
 
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Greetings Earthling! Welcome!

Some of what you are asking, well most, comes down to with what and how are you wanting to make them.

There's wax and pack, wax and pour, doughsmash and grind, combinations of those... and that's before digits get discussed.

Were you staying fully digital and milling them? It'll eat gobs of mill time, 3+ hrs easy. Printing? Dunno if there's anything tht'll take the torture yet.

whatever way, glad to meet you. Wander over to the Indroduce yerself section if you like and get a few hellos if that's your style.
Printing the Keystone guard material is great!
 
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FASTFNGR

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i'd love to find a dual laminate material that doesn't de-laminate over time and use... in my 25 years, im yet to find one!
Dentsply heat and seat, they will never separate even if you tried to.
 
Chalky

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Printing the Keystone guard material is great!
totally agree! I have looked at this material and it is quite impressive from what I have seen. it just hasn't been around long enough to truly determine how it stacks up long term. But it certainly looks good!
 
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The best splints I have ever delivered have been from intraoral scans so I think you are swimming in the right direction. My patients tolerate hard appliances very very well when they fit perfectly. And from Trios scans...they fit perfectly. I have had to dial back retention and undercut for a sensitive patient but I have not had a single patient reject a hard appliance since making them digitally. Cured materials placed on settable materials poured into viscoelastic impressions....give that vice like feeling referenced earlier and thus the love of dual laminates to compensate in the industry (imho). But no doubt, pound for pound a dual layer is more comfy, just doesn't satisfy all the objectives sometimes.

Printed materials are getting there. KesplintSoft people are loving, but it's a little bit of a sensitive resin to printing (more print failures). Too early to tell on longetivity in the mouth. Last gen hard materials (Dental LT Clear, Nextdent etc) were brittle, and like emax, sometimes used too thin and then blamed for being brittle. But with adequate thickness in less severe bruxers they have been an extremely well fitting, cheap, fast to turn around, ugly as sin (yes they are discolored),not great to polish, and less wear resistant alternative to traditional materials. I tell my patients exactly that and that I'll replace it when it cracks or upgrade them to milled. No one has ever commented on the color, which surprised me. But my nextdent days will soon be behind me as materials improve, but I did not have any catasrophes as others have described. I think I've had 3 or 4 crack out of maybe 50 to 100? in 3 years. However I'm an expert in design, I know the limitations and I'm not a splint machine so my sample size is low.

The absolute best splints I've delivered have been milled...They fit just as well, beautiful, durable, clear, pretty, polishable....just expensive to manufacture.

But, if your doctors are ONLY sending intraoral scans, now you have to decide which compromise to make. Add cost and print models? Add cost and mill? Make quality compromise and print? If I'm a doctor looking at it from a lab point of view, my recommendation is to provide the relationship with the doctor and design but outsource the milling or outsource to a KeySplint Clear (Carbon only printers) lab until you have the capacity to invest in the equipment. My fear is that whatever printing tech for splints you invest in today, is obsolete in 2 years? People also seem to like EGuard2 from Envisiontec


Best,
Patrick
 
JMN

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You don't speak often, but when you do...
 
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Also, definitely have the doctor scan the bite at the open bite you want for clearance. Even on a leaf gauge, the patient can want to protrude or deviate...so they need to use their EYES and their JUDGMENT and not just say oh hell there is a leaf gauge here I guess I got CR. I can make inflammatory comments like this because I am both a doctor, and occasionally guilty of capturing a protruded bite. But I make my own appliances so then I only get to yell at myself.

. Cheap/Quick/Accurate Digital facebow is kind of the major missing piece of the puzzle.

The following get you therein some way shape or form.
- Average values get you there
-Measurement estimations
-Cheap Facial scanning Simple (Bellus, Photogrammery apps)
-Cheap Facial scanning with some extra magic (bite pates, forehead plates etc)
-Expensive Facial scanning (Arctec, Face Hunter, etc)
-Digital jaw tracking and digital facebows integrated with 3Shape etc.
 
CoolHandLuke

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i gather that Trios you got worked a treat.
 
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i gather that Trios you got worked a treat.
It's been amzaing, and man that was unbelievably lucky. Changed my life. It's still kicking too I have only replaced mirrors. I use it almost every day. I hate paying yearly licensing fees but considering my purchase price I'm way ahead. Only other issue was my dongle crapped out and I couldn't even load scans for 5 days until they sent me a physical replacement (I think for free? haven't seen a bill).
 

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