Monolithic Madness

[NicelyMKV]

When I attend a local lecture and notice that I have less grey hair than everyone else and I don't reek of cigarettes then I know I am successful.

Haaaa!!! Good sound factual proof

 

[NicelyMKV]

Well the lab I started out at was full of old timers. I wanted to go home at...5:30pm and had been there since 7:00am. I had hobbies, friends family and all that good stuff. I only wanted to work a half day Saturday and wanted at least one weekend day off. They called me young and lazy lol. I figured just because it was so in their ludicrous reality didn't make it right... Well, I start talking to more and more labs and it was the same through out. Really made me step back and question myself, does majority make it right? Lol oh well sorry to get off topic

 

[ed 3]

Really made me step back and question myself, does majority make it right?

The majority most of the time always wrong [financially, politically] historically spiking. It is good to be in a minority for many reasons.

 

[Alistar]

Maybe this is where the Lava Ultimate will come into it's own.

This material NEEDS full shoulder preparation or a lot of retention to last. It is not as robust as e.Max and does will not perform like e.Max or FCZ in limited occlusal space. It is 250mpa at 1.5mm with a FULL shoulder. Is that the normal prep? Still, it is another tool in the box for millers. I hear CEREC doc are really liking it, but some having debonding issues, because of the "elastic" type properties...

 

[CoolHandLuke]

Cool hand luke, I agree but how long will all these advancements take to be relized. We can only work with what is available now. I am sure there is a "holy grail" material out there but who knows when and if. Imagine designing a crown or stem cell capsule with 3D holographic software, where the software is so intuitive that it does it all. (do we even have to turn on the computer). This will come i'am sure but it will evolve slowly I think.
Windows 3.2 to Win 7 now, It has been evolving for years but I still have to tap a keyboard and move a mouse.

"blade runner, Bicentennial man " not yet

it evolves slowly, indeed. each new version of the software needs a phase where everyone using it gets to adopt it and work with it and have input to its next stage; a la windows 3.2 to 7.

there needs to be stepping stones. a direct target at which to aim the design of the software, test it, practice it, and then move forward.

but with software development is also hardware development. you can't use windows 7 on an old apple LC2 the hardware just isnt advanced enough. what i'm proposing is essentially that. our predicament right now is our hardware is an apple LC2, and our software is windows 7. zirconia is an ancient recipe of materials, the building block of the next phase of our hardware which if we're anywhere near successful will be a toshiba thinkpad pentium 3. when we adopt that, then we'll have more wiggle room for yet more new advancements in software.

 

[CatamountRob]

Hi cheadlemick, you are right! The devil is in details isn't it? I personally have a multiple skills- plummer,welder,craftsman, contraction manager,dental tech.

What the hells a contraction manager Ed? Did you work in an OBGYN office?

 

[hammerhead]

This material NEEDS full shoulder preparation or a lot of retention to last. It is not as robust as e.Max and does will not perform like e.Max or FCZ in limited occlusal space. It is 250mpa at 1.5mm with a FULL shoulder. Is that the normal prep? Still, it is another tool in the box for millers. I hear CEREC doc are really liking it, but some having debonding issues, becauick the "elastic" type properties...

Allistar-with all due respect I am not seeing the need for 90 degree shoulderprep. Chamfer seems to work well.
Late results on emax is 200mpa after 2 days invitro,and since ive added to emax couple days into cementation I can tell u there was a noticeable change in hardness.Yep its another tool that hopefully will kick ivoclams ass since their r&d is based on u and i.3m"s is based on 3 yrs.Remember targis vectris,enough said.

Just another material choice,good or bad.Only time will tell.

Just glad iam still around to see something with real promise and not something dreamed up yesterday we are r testing for the propaganda giant

 

[RileyS]

Well the lab I started out at was full of old timers. I wanted to go home at...5:30pm and had been there since 7:00am. I had hobbies, friends family and all that good stuff. I only wanted to work a half day Saturday and wanted at least one weekend day off. They called me young and lazy lol. I figured just because it was so in their ludicrous reality didn't make it right... Well, I start talking to more and more labs and it was the same through out. Really made me step back and question myself, does majority make it right? Lol oh well sorry to get off topic

I'm extremely interested to know what your hours are now...mind sharing?

 

[NicelyMKV]

I'm extremely interested to know what your hours are now...mind sharing?

................. 10 hour days minimum about 6 days a week..........


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Alistar]

Allistar-with all due respect I am not seeing the need for 90 degree shoulderprep. Chamfer seems to work well.
Late results on emax is 200mpa after 2 days invitro,and since ive added to emax couple days into cementation I can tell u there was a noticeable change in hardness.Yep its another tool that hopefully will kick ivoclams ass since their r&d is based on u and i.3m"s is based on 3 yrs.Remember targis vectris,enough said.

Just another material choice,good or bad.Only time will tell.

Just glad iam still around to see something with real promise and not something dreamed up yesterday we are r testing for the propaganda giant

Looks like we hit sore spot

Hey, I'm just relaying what doc's on DT are saying.

If you got a beef with Ivoclar, I don't think I'm the one you need to vent on. Have beer or hit a punching bag dude....or maybe you already had too many beers? Your grammar may be a sign of that.

I don't know where you get the 200mpa invetro number. Anyone else here that?

Anyway, I agree with you, only time will tell on the Lava Ultimate, but e.Max is not going anywhere. It's too profitable for labs and the docs love it. I had 8 e.Max and 1 PFM on my bench today. Tomorrow it's going to be 4 e.max 1PFM and 3-unit bridge in FCZ Lava Plus with a buccal cutback.

Who knows...in a 2 or 3 years the docs may be clammoring for Lava Ultimate...and in that case I'll be clicking away at a computer instead of waxing, grinding, staining, and stacking porcelain.

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

As a tech of 40 years i'm amazed at how some of us look at our profession! Monolithic crowns look **** compared to E-Max, let's be honest how many preps do you get to give enough room for monolithic to look even halfway natural. !'m lucky i will retire soon and the saddest part is no one seems to have pride in their skills any more! How many of you on here do their own plumbing or plastering or car maintenance? The general public hardly know what we do never mind what is involved, give a bloke in the street a manual on how to pour an imp they wouldnt get past page one! I hope none of you techs out their are hoping to get your family involved in this job because it wont be around too much longer!

i havent been doing this for 40 years but i agree 10000%!!!!!! but i also dont think the industry will go away any time soon

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

and for those that think the new technology is going to wipe out labs soon, lets remind ourselves that PFMs were to completely obliterate full gold crowns......now i know they arent a giant portion of the daily workload, but guess what?

they are still here! and even with this "new" and great technology, they are STILL being done on a healthy scale. add in the cost of gold and its amazing they are still around, but they are. for a 12 person lab, i still see 5-25 gold crowns come across my desk for final QC every WEEK. not too shabby.

new technology doesnt mean we will be replaced. it will find its place in the market, and when techs get their heads out of a dark and unsanitary place we can begin to remove our products from the "commodity" shelf. if enough of us wake up.

besides, for us younger folks who have had this technology most of our careers, its just another tool in the tool belt. another weapon in our arsenal. stay WITH technology. if youre not progressing, youre left behind.

cheers!

 

[CoolHandLuke]

and for those that think the new technology is going to wipe out labs soon, lets remind ourselves that PFMs were to completely obliterate full gold crowns......now i know they arent a giant portion of the daily workload, but guess what?

they are still here! and even with this "new" and great technology, they are STILL being done on a healthy scale. add in the cost of gold and its amazing they are still around, but they are. for a 12 person lab, i still see 5-25 gold crowns come across my desk for final QC every WEEK. not too shabby.

new technology doesnt mean we will be replaced. it will find its place in the market, and when techs get their heads out of a dark and unsanitary place we can begin to remove our products from the "commodity" shelf. if enough of us wake up.

besides, for us younger folks who have had this technology most of our careers, its just another tool in the tool belt. another weapon in our arsenal. stay WITH technology. if youre not progressing, youre left behind.

cheers!

indeed, when automation abounds, the handmade becomes antiquated, but still valid and coveted.

just because Ford can make an automobile at a rate of 1 per second, and bentley 1 per week does not make bentley less competitive. just obscenely priced for an item that hardly seems worth its cost.

 

[Labwa]

Take that back! Bentley choose 1000 year old oak for their dashboards. I'm disappointed in that statement Luke.

 

[paulg100]

lava ultimate is a composite. the elastic modulus of traditional composite is very low.. say 10-20gpa.

If you use a material with such a low elastic modulus as a bulk enamel replacement (ie a full crown) then you loose alot of tooth rigidity.

Enamel is around 80gpa.the dentine/tooth needs this hard outer shell to give it its strength.

Last time i looked i could not find the elastic modulus of lava ultimate in any of its marketing material (omitted on purpose?).

If it behaves like a composite then i would not be using this as a replacement for emax (90gpa) ,plus the fact that it looks like a temporary.ie crap.

if 3m wanna chuck loads of money at marketing it and people ask for it then of course ill sell it (we have the sirona craplab to produce it) but other than that im not in the least bit interested.

the per unit cost of the material is not competitive and i think this is best left as a quick fix milled chair side material.

"I don't know where you get the 200mpa invetro number. Anyone else here that?"

News to me, theres plenty of invitro studies conducted in motion simulators in an aqueous environment that simulate way more than 2 days wear, and all the studies show very high survival rates.

would love to read the study if you can post a link, so we can see if that was cad or pressed, how the units were treated (ie finished with rubbers/stones) what the sintering/press parameters were etc etc. Theres a ton of variables that effect the stength of this material. CAD can be as low as 260mpa before its even seated.

to my knowledge any ceramics are affected by some form of hydrothermal ageing. The last lecture i sat that discussed this regarding ZR suggested that it was around 50% of its original strength after 5 years. Its easy to get hung up on the mpa numbers, i think you have to look at overall survival rates. Occlusion is the biggest factor in determining a materials survival rate, not its strength.

Having said that.. is this another ticking time bomb for minimal thickness FC ZR crowns on molars? once the barrier is gone (glaze or polish, dentist adjusting at fit and not re-polishing enough) this is when the moisture penetration really starts. so down goes the strength.

Are we gonna start seeing a run of failures in a few years that will put these crowns rep down the toilet..time will tell. popcorn

but lets be honest, the dentists who are prescribing these couldnt give two hoots about all that stuff, its all about the $$.

 

[ed 3]

and for those that think the new technology is going to wipe out labs soon, lets remind ourselves that PFMs were to completely obliterate full gold crowns......now i know they arent a giant portion of the daily workload, but guess what?

they are still here! and even with this "new" and great technology, they are STILL being done on a healthy scale. add in the cost of gold and its amazing they are still around, but they are. for a 12 person lab, i still see 5-25 gold crowns come across my desk for final QC every WEEK. not too shabby.

new technology doesnt mean we will be replaced. it will find its place in the market, and when techs get their heads out of a dark and unsanitary place we can begin to remove our products from the "commodity" shelf. if enough of us wake up.

besides, for us younger folks who have had this technology most of our careers, its just another tool in the tool belt. another weapon in our arsenal. stay WITH technology. if youre not progressing, youre left behind.

cheers!

we have plenty of FGC's everyday coming too.

 

[Tom Moore]

When I attend a local lecture and notice that I have less grey hair than everyone else and I don't reek of cigarettes then I know I am successful.

Also stay away form that small gathering of techs in the corner with plaster in the welts of their shoes. They are removable techs that just buy teeth and make gums for them. They will just become confused with words like monolithic and it will cause them to scurry back to their pressure pots half full on oily looking water.

This should pick up the number of Friday posts.

 

[Tom Moore]

I’m a work smart, do more, charge less and make more dollars by capturing a bigger part of the market kind of guy. That makes the competition mad but it’s not a popularity contest.

My happiness comes form doing a good job of taking care of those I’m responsible for and having the money to make decisions based on what’s really best for me and not from fear of the ramifications of my decisions.

Easy to write but very hard to do.

 

[NicelyMKV]

I’m a work smart, do more, charge less and make more dollars by capturing a bigger part of the market kind of guy. That makes the competition mad but it’s not a popularity contest.

My happiness comes form doing a good job of taking care of those I’m responsible for and having the money to make decisions based on what’s really best for me and not from fear of the ramifications of my decisions.

Easy to write but very hard to do.

I think you probably are set up very efficient and getting better pricing on materials due to large bulk etc. so, you can probably charge less but profit the same or more compared to small guys like me killing myself to finish a finite amount of work at slightly higher prices.

 

[RileyS]

................. 10 hour days minimum about 6 days a week..........


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

so how are you going to cut that back to eight hours a day and no weekends?...other than using Toms system?