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    milled wax + e.max = open margins

    Discussion in 'All Porcelain-Press' started by dandyfop, Aug 25, 2017.

    1. dandyfop

      dandyfop Member Full Member

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      Hey everyone,

      I'm having an issue with my wax patterns seeming to open up at the margin after pressing. like the lingual will be open underneath the crown and it will rock. It's not every crown and seems to affect only certain shapes. Maybe 20% of the time.

      I'm using
      DWX 50
      machinable wax orange and green
      galaxy 2 investment
      pro press 200 oven
      rapid burnout

      My hand waxes don't do this. I saw another thread with the same problem but no definitive answer.

      My possible solutions are:
      change ratios (currently 15ml liquid/8ml water. but why does my other wax press fine? Also would that solve rocking?)
      change wax
      make wax thicker (could thin walls (.4) cause this?)
      change burnout schedule

      what do you guys think? I feel like this is something someone has definitively solved and knows the answer that will make lab life excellent again.

      Thanks!
       
    2. dandyfop

      dandyfop Member Full Member

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      I should say, obvious, the wax patterns fit perfect on the die before investing
       
    3. Car 54
      No Mood

      Car 54 Well-Known Member Donator Full Member

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      To be honest, I don't press anything thinner than 7/10ths, that's my normal thickness when I'm layering anterior cases unless I thin it out after to 5/10ths, and 8/10ths min on posterior for layering.

      I've had very consistent results with TD Dental gray milling wax. Maybe the mill wax is dimensionally changing when it's invested
      and going through its hot setting cycle?
       
      Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
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    4. eyeloveteeth
      Innocent

      eyeloveteeth Well-Known Member Donator Full Member

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      dial down the spacer a bit and see if that's better. If they fit perfect during the test fit before investing, obviously something is generating error whether it be the pressing program or the setting time on the investment.
       
    5. dandyfop

      dandyfop Member Full Member

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      Ya it's definitely something in the investment/burnout becuase they fit great before. I was reading some threads on here about machinable wax having a high resin content and the resin expanding in the ring causing some issues. I'd love to go 100% milled wax in the lab but can't until I can trust it's going to be perfect. I can change the mix ratios, but I feel like that is a bandaid solution.

      thanks for the input so far!
       
    6. dandyfop

      dandyfop Member Full Member

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      This particular case had the lingual margin pull open with a lingual wall of 0.4mm. I'm going to remill it with a thicker area and see if it improves
       
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    7. Contraluz

      Contraluz Well-Known Member Full Member

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      Dito
       
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    8. RDA
      Cheerful

      RDA Well-Known Member Full Member

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      I had the same problem, until I spoke to Kyle Kuhns about it, thanks Kyle. I also use Galaxy 2 investment. He recommended not to use a rapid burnout, the resins in the wax patterns are causing the problem. We switched to a regular(slow) burnout lowering our first phase heat rate also, and having the ring heat soak at the halfway point(650*F - 700*F for us) for thirty minutes. This has fixed the problem for us. If you do place the ring in a preheated furnace, the temperature should not be over 500*F. If you go with a lower resin wax, Kyle suggested slowing your mill down, so the burs don't melt the wax. Hope this helps.
       
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    9. millennium

      millennium Active Member Full Member

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      Use carve able milling wax like the one Argen has. No problems for me so far.
       
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    10. eyeloveteeth
      Innocent

      eyeloveteeth Well-Known Member Donator Full Member

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      the Orange+ from machinable wax is carvable.

      We've also been trying the carving wax pucks from Yamahachi - REALLY good stuff
       
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    11. dandyfop

      dandyfop Member Full Member

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      I've been using the orange+ actually. Maybe I'll try the argen wax again. I'd hate to have to go back to a slow burnout, but I guess I will if the argen wax doesn't work. Thanks for everything so far!
       
    12. millennium

      millennium Active Member Full Member

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      I have the ProPress 200 and use Microsrar investment right into 1652 F. oven for an hour. I just seal the margins with High Tech margin wax and it works very well.
       
    13. DanM

      DanM Member Full Member

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      Try the Harvest Wax Press Beige, I even mill and press thin veneers. Never any issues. If you still have issues after that you know it's not the wax.
       
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    14. Kam Yu

      Kam Yu Member Full Member

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      Try using medium pressure to press the milled wax onto the die right out of the mill. checking the intaglio occlusal surface of the wax pattern for indentions made by the die where the die may have sharp edges. If you see the die made indentions in your wax, carve them away. Do this a few times till it is the margin/chamfer holding up the crown and not the occlusal area. I have to do this from time to time. Also, some people do a 360 porcelain margin type cutback when marking margins, dont do that because again you want the chamfer to hold the crown up.
       
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    15. Polarmolar

      Polarmolar Active Member Full Member

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      I've had issues with resin on the wax also. I think I burned it out hotter but switched to the vanilla from Argen and harvest dental and it's mint.


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
       
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    16. ztech

      ztech Active Member Full Member

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      The resin is the problem. You need to use a long burnout for most of the milling waxes with a hold at 250C for 30 min. If you need to fast burnout something, the best I have found is the Harvest Dental White.
       
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    17. Joon Hong
      Bitching

      Joon Hong New Member Full Member

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      using zirlux wax from zahn
      best one so far
      i use 0.3mm milling bur all the time for wax mill
      using quick burnout with microstar or talladium
      after burn out is ready at 1700 degree, 40min for 1st ring and add 10min each additional ring
      going down to 0.3mm thickness
      never had problem
       
    18. dandyfop

      dandyfop Member Full Member

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      Alright, I'm back after doing a bunch of experimenting. This forum is awesome so the least I can do if add my thoughts to someone's search.

      The wax was 75% of the problem. I read a bunch on here about machinable wax, but in my lab the resin did affect the fit. I went back to the Harvest stuff and 75% of the problem disappeared! Wax is cheap, don't cheap out on it!

      the remaining problem was milling too thin with certain die shapes. Especially barrel shapes with undercuts that were very thin. I've increased my minimum thickness to .7mm in the mill.

      And finally tweaked my mix ratios in investment to tighen it a smidge.

      I didn't want to go back to slow burnout if I didn't have to.

      Problem solved!

      Thanks everyone.
       
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    19. stanleyn

      stanleyn Member Full Member

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      Make sure when divesting use less than 2bar of pressure for your sendbluster.
       
    20. sidesh0wb0b
      Sleepy

      sidesh0wb0b Well-Known Member Full Member

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      where do you purchase them from?
       

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