Margins

BMS

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I've recently been informed by a DLT snob that my metal work isn't near good enough to be used by him. I seem to get some shrinkage around my margins, not always but sometimes and sometimes it seems as if the margins have peeled away or lifted up from the margin as well, any suggestions? Also what is your guys' procedure for dipping the copings (what type of wax used, etc.) and getting a good marginal fit?
 
magushnik

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perhaps sometimes your porc is to wet?
 
Travis

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DLT= dental lab tech or dentaltown.com?

A dr told you this?


The metal should not be shrinking or peeling away from the margin. What type of metal are you referring to?

Do you finish you metal under a scope?
 
BMS

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It was a tech who farms out his metal work, he basically says everybody sucks at it yet he can't/won't do it himself. Anyway, I think the problem lies in I can't find a technique that works good every time. I've tried with and without margin wax when I dip the copings and I always do it under a scope so kind of confused as to why this is happening.
 
Al.

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I've recently been informed by a DLT snob that my metal work isn't near good enough to be used by him. I seem to get some shrinkage around my margins, not always but sometimes and sometimes it seems as if the margins have peeled away or lifted up from the margin as well, any suggestions? Also what is your guys' procedure for dipping the copings (what type of wax used, etc.) and getting a good marginal fit?
When are you seeing the problem? In the wax? When you fit the castings or are you saying your margins are lifting from the die when porc is applied?
 
BMS

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They seem to fit good after finishing/degassing but after opaquing and the first bake or so they seem not to fit as well.
 
sixonice

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Sounds like marginal "creeping" in the metal itself. If your waxing yourself and working under a scope, I have to think (almost 100%) that your waxing is fine. What I would llike to know is what kind of alloy are you using? Sometimes the high Palladium (say over 75% or so) alloys will experience some "creeping" especially when very thin. Manuafacturers added Lithium (Li) to correct this problem & stabilize the alloy. Also, high content gold alloys (again when thin) can creep and curl a bit when opaqued because of the higher temperatures of the opaquing cycle. Waxing higher gold at least .3mm can help this, but with gold prices being crazy and metal finishing time-consuming, this isn't always the best solution. What alloy or alloys are you experiencing this with??
 
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Al.

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I agree with Six Pack of Corona. It sounds like the metal your using.
If your going to keep using that metal you may have to keep your margins thicker.
For me I would switch metal.

Do you leave any metal bands or is it full coverage porc?
Do the margins ever lift where the metal bands are or is it only where the porc is applied.
 
JohnWilson

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I agree with Six Pack of Corona. It sounds like the metal your using.
If your going to keep using that metal you may have to keep your margins thicker.
For me I would switch metal.

Do you leave any metal bands or is it full coverage porc?
Do the margins ever lift where the metal bands are or is it only where the porc is applied.

Al and Six are dead on with their replies. Its most likely the metal you are using. If you tell me its NP then we have to talk.

Also who is Opaquing? You or who you outsource to? Are they heat treating the metal prior to Opaquing? Are they following the manufacturers recommendation for the alloy you provide? Do you feel you burnish margins to seal them or they are cast and fit to where you waxed?

Like others have said marginal creep on high PD alloys is common, less for HN PD/Au. Name the alloy you are having trouble with and we can perhaps give some more info.

Good luck,
 
BMS

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I'm using an NP alloy but I'm almost out of it and to tell you the truth I can't remember the name (threw the card away) but it's standard nickel chrome. I'm switching over to Tilite per request of my dentists. It sounds like I need to keep the margins a little thicker, I'll give that a go and see what happens.
 
JohnWilson

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I'm using an NP alloy but I'm almost out of it and to tell you the truth I can't remember the name (threw the card away) but it's standard nickel chrome. I'm switching over to Tilite per request of my dentists. It sounds like I need to keep the margins a little thicker, I'll give that a go and see what happens.

Well there are other issues somewhere in that alloy. NP should not deform, creep, flare, or move. Its hard as hell for a reason. Tilite is a decent alloy if its absolutely necessary to do NP. Do yourself and your health a favor at the very least use a Nobel alloy and save yourself some stomach lining.

Good luck
 
BMS

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I just use what is requested and thus far none of my docs request it.
 
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sixonice

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I'm using an NP alloy but I'm almost out of it and to tell you the truth I can't remember the name (threw the card away) but it's standard nickel chrome. I'm switching over to Tilite per request of my dentists. It sounds like I need to keep the margins a little thicker, I'll give that a go and see what happens.

BMS.....gosh buddy, I thought I had your problem nailed down earlier, but with you letting us know your using a Non Precious Alloy (like the others have mentioned) I am really stumped here??? I was positive your problem was attributed to using like a 2% Gold, 78% Palladium alloy. I hope the Tilite cures the problems for you. I here for NP's - if you gotta use them - that the Tilite works as good as any. Good luck & let us know! If the Tilite doesn't creep, then you'll know that the original problem was caused by your original NP!
 
BMS

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Sorry I didn't clarify earlier but all the info on noble alloys is good to know for the future, I really appreciate you guys and all the feedback. The NP I'm using was a freebie but the Tilite seems better, I've only done a few copings with it but I think it will work better for everything even if the docs don't request it specifically I'm going to use it. Thanks you guys.
 
aidihra

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Are you trimming the metal too thin? That's the only thing I can think of that might be causing you problems.
 
BMS

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I think I got it figured out, just cast some copings and they fit great thanks for the tips everyone. I also learned that if you stick your tongue out and make stupid faces while waxing copings they turn out better, who knew?
 
C

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Are you trimming the metal too thin? That's the only thing I can think of that might be causing you problems.
hi aidhira, you are right. That was happened to me before when I trimmed NP too thin. Dr. send the case back after he took a new impression, but the redo failed again. Margin shorted after de-oxidized (1000 F),three bakes and finished. It drives me crazy.
I wanted to share one more experience with our forum is when I use NP contained Be, and high casting temp (1550 F),creeping does not appear, and I am sure that I trimmed metal the same way I did before. Short margin on metal happens only with the metal contained no Be, and casting temp is lower at 1450 F.
Any body have an answer?
However like AL, Sixonice, John Wilson suggested, I changed my metal and kept the margin thicker.
Next question is for BMS. How much Talladium charged you per Tillite ounce? I have a quote from Talladium six months ago and they charge about $40.00/ounce?!
Thanks every one
ClearH2O
 
sixonice

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The Beryllium (Be) is what makes non-precious alloy easier to work with. It makes the alloy "pool" when melted and casted, helps metal finishing easier (both technique-wise and also on the fingers!) and as you mentioned, helps reduce the marginal "creepage". Back about 7 or 8 years, some manufacturers stopped making NP alloy with Beryllium because of some confirmed cases of Berylliosis (which is irresversible and affects the lungs) and it is a Category 1 carcinogen. If the alloys are handled, processed and good vacuums systems is place, the adverse conditions Be present can be controlled very easily. OSHA even put out a big "stink" on it. You can still find NP's with Be out there, just not as many.
What is surprising is the $40.00 per ounce for Tilite!?!? Whoa....I mean I know the stuff is good and all and they have made a good name on it over the years but that seems crazy expensive. I betcha that stuff costs no more than $5 per ounce to make.
 
JohnWilson

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The Beryllium (Be) is what makes non-precious alloy easier to work with. It makes the alloy "pool" when melted and casted, helps metal finishing easier (both technique-wise and also on the fingers!) and as you mentioned, helps reduce the marginal "creepage". Back about 7 or 8 years, some manufacturers stopped making NP alloy with Beryllium because of some confirmed cases of Berylliosis (which is irresversible and affects the lungs) and it is a Category 1 carcinogen. If the alloys are handled, processed and good vacuums systems is place, the adverse conditions Be present can be controlled very easily. OSHA even put out a big "stink" on it. You can still find NP's with Be out there, just not as many.
What is surprising is the $40.00 per ounce for Tilite!?!? Whoa....I mean I know the stuff is good and all and they have made a good name on it over the years but that seems crazy expensive. I betcha that stuff costs no more than $5 per ounce to make.

What has ever stopped the manufactures from raping us ?

I hate NP, I have used the tialite in the past and it acted very much like a semi precious metal. Even with the best precautions the chance to harm me and my staff with a material that is know to be this dangerous is not acceptable to me. Even with the ridiculous swings in the alloy market I will find a way to talk my clients into a semi precious metal. If they are that cheap and will not spring for it we usually will not work with one another long.

Nickle and Be are old school band aids for car bumper metal that should never ever have been placed in the mouth.

My main question is.... Why work harder, with dangerous materials to produce a product that is inferior, FOR LESS?

When its spelled out like this it kind of makes you think???
 

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