Loving Locator attachments/Implants

TheLabGuy

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Rob, the Locator is the lowest profile attachment on the market. Keep in mind, it is also has the
widest housing. Have used both coping / ball and locators. Depends on the case.
With a root canal and locator. The metal post and core must extend a minimum of 5mm in the hole.
Have done some custom (laser welding) due to the threads would not line up in the post/core hole, needing
the mechanical retention. Threads cut off, coping milled to flat surface and laser weld the locator in correct
placement. Mostly use locator when can, otherwise Bredent ball attachments.

Thanks for the intel...I'm curious, where do you get 5mm from, I'm not questioning it, I just don't remember reading/seeing a specific number before? I'd have to go look again, but I think the micro's balls are 1.8mm vertical height, I imagine most locators are in that range as well...no? Do you guys all laser weld your locators to your framework or do some of you solder them?
 
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noenegdod

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Dude, he won't say it because he's a Moderator, but I will. Stop acting like a little bitch...seriously, I bet you still got the pencil you wrote down names when the teacher was out of the class in third grade don't you? See, you probably had some valuable information to share but a post like that just screams troll...and we all move on, not really giving any credence what you have to say. Now if your a person of reason, which you may, I'm giving it 50/50 at this moment in time, then you'll see your own fault for the implication of calling someone a thief and apologize. If not, then I guess troll it is...which is sad really, then nobody really benefits from any of this...then again, maybe that's your intention?


WooHoo, and the underlings attack! Listen you half whit, sit down, shut up and listen. Going to say it one more time real clear and slow for the guys who rode the short bus.

The dentist is the one making the decisions. He is the one responsible for selling unnecessary products and adding to the complexity of the case. So is there an apology on its way? Who am I supposed to apologize to? The guy who I didnt call a theif? The guy who told me I wasnt worth talking to because I didnt agree with something he does? Tell me Lab Guy cause Im really interested in knowing. Talk about troll, jumping into something you have nothing to do with and stirring the pot. Call me a "little bitch", internet hero to the rescue! Stay out of it.
 
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noenegdod

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John, "flask photo" looked as if the Locators were to the tissue. More photos explained it well. Nice job!

So.... If you want to get this back on track, could you please tell me what your seeing in the flask photo that makes this all clear. Admittedly I misread a little of what john said in his slow down post that may have helped me make the leap but I have processed locator cases with the housings extremely close to the tissue and looked similar to the flask photo. Any input is appreciated.
 
kcdt

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There are typically two possibilities for a reply like that. The first is you cant justify what you did and/or you think your work is beyond reproach, the second and implied reason is you think Im stupid.

I clearly stated I was confused by your comment and asked for an explanation. Had you simply stated the treament plan it would have been clear what the miscommunication was and I would have understood. Great demonstration of character, and screw you for telling everyone on here you think Im stupid.

1. The picture posted by the OP that you stated is yours, clearly pictures a framework that is going to be processed into a horse shoe denture supported by three individual implants. The the case posted and described by yourself is clearly not. There is no comparison between the two cases in terms of long term prognosis. As stated, you work under prescription, you are not liable for the outcome, you can not change the prescription without approval from the prescribing dentist without great risk. There are a hand full of crappy dentists that do that crap, most get away with it.

2. Doing more procedures that do not add value to the case, simply because the client has a fat wallet amounts to theft, and it certainly does not make it "the best". You can not justify adding the coating to a framework that will not be visible. Period. It amounts to theft. There are substantially better ways of hiding metal than adding yet another material to the mix, that does not even hide the locator housings. Again as long as it was on the prescription, its not your issue. Its not ethical for the dentist to prescribe it simply because the patient can afford to pay, but its not your issue.

The dentist has an obligation to provide the patient with treatment options, explain the procedures and materials involved in those treatment options and give them a prognosis for each option. There is no justifiable reason to coat either of those frames. It is simply fee padding. The more you charge the dentist, the more he charged the patient. Again your insulated, your just a yes man, happy to take the money.
If you're going to be an abrasive **** about it, then look closer at the picture. John said it was a stone dupe of the bar, and closer inspection tells me it could well be; the anterior most locator has a sharp square line angle either side of it.... looks like a frikkin' bar to me, sparky.
Maybe you should slow down and let your brain engage, eh?
 
kcdt

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WooHoo, and the underlings attack! Listen you half whit, sit down, shut up and listen. Going to say it one more time real clear and slow for the guys who rode the short bus.

The dentist is the one making the decisions. He is the one responsible for selling unnecessary products and adding to the complexity of the case. So is there an apology on its way? Who am I supposed to apologize to? The guy who I didnt call a theif? The guy who told me I wasnt worth talking to because I didnt agree with something he does? Tell me Lab Guy cause Im really interested in knowing. Talk about troll, jumping into something you have nothing to do with and stirring the pot. Call me a "little bitch", internet hero to the rescue! Stay out of it.
Sounds like you could use a little Dale Carnagie.... because you're not winning friends or influencing anyone with the tack you're taking.
 
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noenegdod

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Thanks Danny,

Whats funny is how this thread started out as a solicitation by Prodigy not thinking I would remember my own case into a moral debate on treatment modalities and moral finger pointing. I know a few of you guys can attest to who I am and what caliber of work and character I have. I am in business to make money, we do that by providing solid products and stand behind our work. The caliber of clients that choose to send me work understand that and value my opinion. If you were to look over my tenure on these sorts of websites I try very hard to never point fingers and pound my chest by stating my way is the one and right way to produce a case. It just makes little sense and benefits no one. We all come to these sites to share our knowledge and with that we all have to have some professionalism.

Text often is a horrible way to communicate, I imagine as Rob has stated this new member has lots of knowledge to offer and perhaps he will find a way to share it in a manner that others will absorb rather than shun.

Lets get back to being colleagues rather than arguing and pointing fingers for no particular reason.


From this thread: http://dentallabnetwork.com/forums/threads/insulating-putty.15696/page-2

noenegdod said:
I came back and typed this after reading through what I had typed below. I have ADD and am a "bottom liner", "just the facts ma'am" . I cut to the chase and puke out the information. I often offend and that is not the intention. Before I was licensed as a Denturist I worked in an industrial setting and am a journey man welder, steel fabricator and Power/Process engineer. I have a ton of experience in thermodynamics, Hydraulics, Pneumatics and anything else you would expect to run into in a refinery or power plant. I was immediately comfortable with Ivocap as a result of my experience am very confident in the success of any "experiments" I do. So again, I am not trying to offend, have a pissing contest, or anything else, I am honestly just trying to share my experience and acquire others. I also appreciate any feed back anyone is willing to offer me on the way I interact on here as the diagnosis of ADD is relatively new and I am working hard on correcting a lifetime of social misfortune and feedback is invaluable.

That said, you dont get to tell me Im not worth talking to and walk away unscathed. We can agree to disagree and happily move on but dont shun me again. Im hear to learn. If you dont like how I spoke to you, tell me. I dont care how you tell me you dont like the way Im playing. Tell me Im being an asshole. I can work with that. I will apologize with a smile and try to ask/share in a different way. If you dont agree with what I said, please, share you thoughts and reasons. I know what I do, thats it. Im hear to learn and as a resource for everyone out there if we discuss a topic it is available to everyone out there.

If your interested in sharing, I have a few more questions about the case. Should I ask or should I just go away.
 
kcdt

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From this thread: http://dentallabnetwork.com/forums/threads/insulating-putty.15696/page-2



That said, you dont get to tell me Im not worth talking to and walk away unscathed. We can agree to disagree and happily move on but dont shun me again. Im hear to learn. If you dont like how I spoke to you, tell me. I dont care how you tell me you dont like the way Im playing. Tell me Im being an asshole. I can work with that. I will apologize with a smile and try to ask/share in a different way. If you dont agree with what I said, please, share you thoughts and reasons. I know what I do, thats it. Im hear to learn and as a resource for everyone out there if we discuss a topic it is available to everyone out there.

If your interested in sharing, I have a few more questions about the case. Should I ask or should I just go away.
All due respect, you haven't been here very long and already your manners have become questionable. If you want to take your toys ans f@#%$ off, then just do it, if you want to engage, then try to do so in a manner that doesn't exasperate everyone else.
You're an adult, is it really that hard to pull it together?
 
TheLabGuy

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I'm not even going to indulge numb nuts over there...but seriously, how many of these trolls have we all seen in the past years. They come on here touting that they're the best thing since sliced bread, they did this and that but at the end of the day they scurry back to under the same bridge they came from. On a serious note though, because all of you have your own ways of doing things and I'm always wanting to learn why this way or that way, without being brash, but the troll did mention something about a injectable acrylic that does hide the metal color. I've never heard of this, and if it's with Ivocap, I imagine it's been out awhile. I'm curious is it expensive, hard to work with, your experiences?
 
CRWNMKR

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All due respect, you haven't been here very long and already your manners have become questionable. If you want to take your toys ans f@#%$ off, then just do it, if you want to engage, then try to do so in a manner that doesn't exasperate everyone else.
You're an adult, is it really that hard to pull it together?
I
I'm not even going to indulge numb nuts over there...but seriously, how many of these trolls have we all seen in the past years. They come on here touting that they're the best thing since sliced bread, they did this and that but at the end of the day they scurry back to under the same bridge they came from. On a serious note though, because all of you have your own ways of doing things and I'm always wanting to learn why this way or that way, without being brash, but the troll did mention something about a injectable acrylic that does hide the metal color. I've never heard of this, and if it's with Ivocap, I imagine it's been out awhile. I'm curious is it expensive, hard to work with, your experiences?
A troll driving a dodgeneon! Lol
 
droberts

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Thanks for the intel...I'm curious, where do you get 5mm from, I'm not questioning it, I just don't remember reading/seeing a specific number before? I'd have to go look again, but I think the micro's balls are 1.8mm vertical height, I imagine most locators are in that range as well...no? Do you guys all laser weld your locators to your framework or do some of you solder them?

What I am referring to of the 5mm is the length of the core post for support. The cast-to-Locator has threads
that are cast to for the mechanical retention. If the threads of the Locator need to be altered "shortened" or repositoned
due to placement it is a good technique to laser weld a seam around the outer circumference. I dont believe you
could control solder without damaging the locator attachment. Below is an example of using both CadCam and adding
attachments utilizing the laser welder. Tooth abutments were scanned and designed, milled both surfaces parallel
and laser welded the attachments. Cast horseshoe frame was fabricated, still out for try-in.

As for the acrylic from Ivoclar that hides the metal. Cannot recall the name of it, tried it and didnt care for it. Has a bit more orange tint than I prefer, especially using it for a base due to tissue tinting. JMO

IMG_2624.jpg
 
droberts

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So.... If you want to get this back on track, could you please tell me what your seeing in the flask photo that makes this all clear. Admittedly I misread a little of what john said in his slow down post that may have helped me make the leap but I have processed locator cases with the housings extremely close to the tissue and looked similar to the flask photo. Any input is appreciated.

I believe John and I use a similar technique for processing bar over denture cases. I block out the bar and get a duplicate
cast using Zhermack silicone. Transfer the set up to the dup and process. Very accurate and consistent.
 
TheLabGuy

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What I am referring to of the 5mm is the length of the core post for support. The cast-to-Locator has threads
that are cast to for the mechanical retention. If the threads of the Locator need to be altered "shortened" or repositoned
due to placement it is a good technique to laser weld a seam around the outer circumference. I dont believe you
could control solder without damaging the locator attachment. Below is an example of using both CadCam and adding
attachments utilizing the laser welder. Tooth abutments were scanned and designed, milled both surfaces parallel
and laser welded the attachments. Cast horseshoe frame was fabricated, still out for try-in.

As for the acrylic from Ivoclar that hides the metal. Cannot recall the name of it, tried it and didnt care for it. Has a bit more orange tint than I prefer, especially using it for a base due to tissue tinting. JMO
Thanks, I've never heard of the 5mm before is why I asked. One last question (I promise...lol),on your above picture, the ball attachment, could have you placed it directly on the occlusal surface (similar to the locator placement),or would that cause to much height, and is their forces by placing it on the distal like that? Okay, maybe that was a three questions in one...lol
 
JohnWilson

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Hi Rob,

I use Ivocap almost exclusively now but this is an older case that was pressed with most likley Diamond D. I tint most of these sorts of cases when I was compression packing and found on cases where the acrylic was a bit uneven in thickness to the frame work that if I opaque it it would not alter the overall shade. I think the end product looks nicer. I do the same thing with all my hybrid bars as well.

His reasoning that patients just do not care for tinting and that the opaque takes up space has some merit but in my opinion is incorrect. Sure there is a percentage that would not know the difference but they are not generally the ones my clients are seeing. We use a frame for a couple of reasons and the main is that on cases where we are tight on interarch space we have a rigid substructure to minimize the potential fracture.

Diamond d Chroma Essence was the shade we tinted much and it was opaque but it still would allow for metal shine through on occasions. Better safe than sorry, I do not line item the opaquing it part of my premium processing/tinting fee.
 
prodigy1

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Darn guys I simply made a MISTAKE when I used my IPOD to post some pics. If you read the initial post I was not soliciting anything just sharing my like of locators, but to continue to call me a lair is ridiculous and we wonder why the world is like it is. AGAIN John I apologize and by the way I did ask John to delete the post but he wanted to make an example out of me.
 
droberts

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Thanks, I've never heard of the 5mm before is why I asked. One last question (I promise...lol),on your above picture, the ball attachment, could have you placed it directly on the occlusal surface (similar to the locator placement),or would that cause to much height, and is their forces by placing it on the distal like that? Okay, maybe that was a three questions in one...lol

Last time I am going to answer. lol, just kidding. The ball attachment would be to high, and there wont be stress on it due to
the top of the coping will be a vertical stop. The posterior Locator will get some force, this is what the doctor ordered. Nice thing,
the opposing is a bilateral partial saddles that will absorb some of the force. Welcome all questions, comments, and concerns.
 
prodigy1

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Instead of proliferating your posts all over the place wherein you show that picture as YOUR work, perhaps you'd be a tad more believable if you deleted the photo(s) in question....
although if this is any indication of your attention to detail, then you're already toast, sonny.
Funny Sonny!!!
 
JohnWilson

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What I am referring to of the 5mm is the length of the core post for support. The cast-to-Locator has threads
that are cast to for the mechanical retention. If the threads of the Locator need to be altered "shortened" or repositoned
due to placement it is a good technique to laser weld a seam around the outer circumference. I dont believe you
could control solder without damaging the locator attachment. Below is an example of using both CadCam and adding
attachments utilizing the laser welder. Tooth abutments were scanned and designed, milled both surfaces parallel
and laser welded the attachments. Cast horseshoe frame was fabricated, still out for try-in.

As for the acrylic from Ivoclar that hides the metal. Cannot recall the name of it, tried it and didnt care for it. Has a bit more orange tint than I prefer, especially using it for a base due to tissue tinting. JMO

View attachment 14784

Thats an interesting design on the VKS attachment Danny,

Have you ever used a mini zagg attachment, low profile and occ force down the long axis of the tooth. I have probably done close to a 100 cases with one or more cast to zaggs. They are generally on canines and they seem to hold up rather well.
 
JohnWilson

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Darn guys I simply made a MISTAKE when I used my IPOD to post some pics. If you read the initial post I was not soliciting anything just sharing my like of locators, but to continue to call me a lair is ridiculous and we wonder why the world is like it is. AGAIN John I apologize and by the way I did ask John to delete the post but he wanted to make an example out of me.

How did my Photo get on your IPOD in the first place, have you posted it elsewhere on the net? Also I was not making an example of you, Go back and look at ALL of your posts and tell me if you have contributed anything to this site other than solicitation of work?
 
TheLabGuy

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Who makes the mini zagg John? (I can't ask Danny any more questions...lol)
 
droberts

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Have not, I'll keep that in mind. Doctor had ask for Locators, or the ball attachment. Here is a photo of
what I poured up that another lab had fabricated. Here is an example of what I was referring to from above.
The other lab simply placed the cast-to-locator on top of the abutment, waxed and cast to it. Didnt even consider the
VDO. This photo explains what I did with the locator, cutting the threads off and welding to the coping. Lowers the VDO
a bunch... Thank you:)

IMG_2435.jpg
 

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