Lost account to Cerec

NicelyMKV

NicelyMKV

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Well, I basically am losing a 15,000 a month account due to Cerec. I had already started losing the posterior work, which was about 50% of it. Now, due to these horrid Cerec models, I will be losing the rest. My crowns fit the Cerec models perfectly, but are not fitting in the mouth. The Doctor understands this, but is marketing heavily as a digital impression dentist. No more analog impressions etc.. He also discussed the fact he invested all this money to be basically analog impression free. I can not export the file from the Cerec software to my milling machine so I have to scan and design on the Cerec models. He seems to think another lab with the full Cerec system can successfully fabricate from a Cerec scan alone. I mentioned that a layered restoration would still have to go back to an analog model for layering? Frustrating that we are forced to work with inferior situations....
 
actittle

actittle

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It's also frustrating to see doctors that are more concerned with making money rather than doing the best for their patients.
 
sidesh0wb0b

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Well, I basically am losing a 15,000 a month account due to Cerec. I had already started losing the posterior work, which was about 50% of it. Now, due to these horrid Cerec models, I will be losing the rest. My crowns fit the Cerec models perfectly, but are not fitting in the mouth. The Doctor understands this, but is marketing heavily as a digital impression dentist. No more analog impressions etc.. He also discussed the fact he invested all this money to be basically analog impression free. I can not export the file from the Cerec software to my milling machine so I have to scan and design on the Cerec models. He seems to think another lab with the full Cerec system can successfully fabricate from a Cerec scan alone. I mentioned that a layered restoration would still have to go back to an analog model for layering? Frustrating that we are forced to work with inferior situations....

stay positive, offer as much help and assistance as you can to him. at the end of the day it just makes you better.....with or without his business. though i understand thats a big account to lose. one day (maybe sooner than later) you might see his work again.
 
RileyS

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Fit the models but not in the mouth?!? Are you sure? You're not just a little pissed and exaggerating? I really want to know for sure cause this has got to stop! My brain just exploded a little.
What Cerec is he using? The latest and greatest? I say be nice and helpful but also show your integrity and let him know he's doing inferior work if models from his scan can't be trusted! He should still have time to return it if he has integrity. But maybe it's just the models don't work.
We lost an account when they upgraded to omni cam and we no longer can receive files as we have red cam. It would take too long to pay off a $15-20,000 upgrade to keep playing the Cerec game
 
NicelyMKV

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Fit the models but not in the mouth?!? Are you sure? You're not just a little pissed and exaggerating? I really want to know for sure cause this has got to stop! My brain just exploded a little.
What Cerec is he using? The latest and greatest? I say be nice and helpful but also show your integrity and let him know he's doing inferior work if models from his scan can't be trusted! He should still have time to return it if he has integrity. But maybe it's just the models don't work.
We lost an account when they upgraded to omni cam and we no longer can receive files as we have red cam. It would take too long to pay off a $15-20,000 upgrade to keep playing the Cerec game

He has the new Omnicam. He says the crowns he fabricates off of his scans fit ok. It's the crowns I am fabricating off of the printed Cerec models that are the issue. They definitely fit the Cerec models when they leave my lab. The mouth is another story. I do believe the Omnicam scan itself is pretty accurate. Just the models being made from it that are the issue...
 
sidesh0wb0b

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He has the new Omnicam. He says the crowns he fabricates off of his scans fit ok. It's the crowns I am fabricating off of the printed Cerec models that are the issue. They definitely fit the Cerec models when they leave my lab. The mouth is another story. I do believe the Omnicam scan itself is pretty accurate. Just the models being made from it that are the issue...

see if the Dr will do a comparison with you. he makes a model and crown, you make a crown for the same model. go to the office for insert and watch. see whats really going on? now that i think of it, this def doesnt make much sense as Riley states.

are yours too tight? too loose? just dont fit at all?
 
NicelyMKV

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The Cerec models I receive are apparently not very accurate. Occlusions, margins and interproximals all seem off in the mouth when compared to the models?
 
sidesh0wb0b

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well that much is a given, but thats normal for cerec.
does he use the same model for making his crowns? how do they compare? besides that cerec crowns arent all that accurate either of course
 
Marcusthegladiator CDT

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Doctors leave, then come back. You'll see.
 
NicelyMKV

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well that much is a given, but thats normal for cerec.
does he use the same model for making his crowns? how do they compare? besides that cerec crowns arent all that accurate either of course

No, he designs straight from his scan and then to the mill.
 
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I wonder if you could have the Dr. do a case and mill and send for a model. Put the patient into a temp. Then check his crown on the Cerec model to see if the fit is the same as he is seeing with your work.
 
RileyS

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Do what Ivan says, that would be very interesting
 
RDA

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Don't waste your time! You are most likely done in his world. I have been victim to Cerec/E4D several times, and played the helpful nice guy every time, only to realize that I was most valuable when his Patterson rep couldn't dig them out of the hole. The Patterson rep all of the sudden becomes a lot more knowledgeable about crown and bridge than they guy that has actually been doing the crown and bridge work for years. I have seen some very good dentists turned into "accepting", mediocre dentists by their machines. Someone on this forum stated it best when they said, " When you buy a $160,000.00 dollar hammer, everything becomes a nail". I do service these accounts when they do call, but they are low on my priority list. Most of the work I have received from them is to pour and mount models fro them to scan, because they couldn't get a decent scan in the mouth, or a lot of anterior diagnostic wax ups for them to take back and scan to then mill out their crowns.I am not saying all of this out of anger( maybe a little bitterness),but out the wasted the time that you should be pursuing new accounts.
Been there done it, it sucks!
 
Labwa

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Jason, This is one of the biggest issues with Cerec. I had a meeting with them and they said i could get open stl. for less than 5k. Well no you get a file to print a solid model. You have to pay upwards of 15k to get the full software unlocked. This is so i can export a working file to 3shape. It is simply not accurate enough to start on a printed model as your base. Especially when its like the models from cerec. The model should just be used as a check model for contacts and occlusion i feel. This is the bind the smart people at Sirona have decided to put us in (bullying Tactic). I think the best way to combat it is to buy a Trios and loan it out. If he does a few crowns one day dont charge him for it. He doest loose anything by trying it (maybe his soul dies a litte) if he scans enough jobs for the day and you get a file you can make a crown that fits to. Plus you can market to other dentists to loan a scanner.

Dont give up with these guys.
 
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the whole point of the sla model workflow is that you get the model and restoration both made from the digital file. all the sla model is, is a place holder.

i didnt realize you were scanning back in the sla model to design the crowns Jason.. no wonder nothing was fitting.

would be better off buying dental shaper to convert to STL rather than buying into sironas BS. they wont think twice about changing the arrangement of what you can and cant do with the dongle to force an upgrade, and leave you high and dry.

with dental shaper you have complete freedom to convert what you want for less money.
 
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Car 54

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I'm somewhere in-between RDA & Labwas's response. Look for more work, but don't write them off. I'm just impressed with some of the honesty on this forum, including your thread, NicelyMKV (Jason) as this is a heads up call to all of us (myself included) who have Cerec Dr's. When mine got theirs was a surprise to me when I walked into their office, only to see "get your crowns done in an hour" card on the counter. Then a couple of weekends later, a Cerec rep. was showing them how to do anteriors complete with 10x14" photos of work. Fortunately, they couldn't get the results, but now you're talking about digital impressions, totally leaving us out of the loop.

Hopefully reality will hit them, but that you will still get the bridge work, and anterior cases, and can fill in the gap with another account or two. It seems the industry is going to be taken over by the big labs who are in the "race to the bottom", fee wise. The dentists who are going to be self sufficient (apart from more complex cases) and the "boutique labs, who will service the cosmetic Dr's cases.

I did mention to my Cerec account about Trios, hoping that they will be open to that option when the time comes that they check into a digital impression scanner.
 
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ParkwayDental

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I know a guy, who knows a guy, that knows a guy, that can handle somethings for ya.
 
Car 54

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lol....yes, Godfather.
 
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2bearnest

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I had a doctor tell me point blank today: "I only care about price, the patients don't know anything about quality - so why would I pay those big prices?"

It's a sad world out there :confused:
 

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