Lets talk Ivoclar's new prices for zirconia discs...

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grantoz

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In Aus they are more expessive than most other countries for ZZ discs but not the prices you are quoting contraluz .i cant tell where are you from cadguru11 so i dont know how to compare. but by the same token you dont hear many complaints about fit strength or colour using Zirkonzahn anything.which in my life is important.
 
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cadguru11

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In Aus they are more expessive than most other countries for ZZ discs but not the prices you are quoting contraluz .i cant tell where are you from cadguru11 so i dont know how to compare. but by the same token you dont hear many complaints about fit strength or colour using Zirkonzahn anything.which in my life is important.
I’m in the US. As a prosthodontist, I could go off on a diatribe on this subject, but with properly prepared teeth, the strength of any zirconia out there should be more than adequate. The battle for the highest MPa has turned into a meaningless pissing contest in my mind, but a great marketing tool for manufacturers. In the defense of labs and technicians, most dentist’s idea of 1mm is .5mm or less, so bigger is sometimes better in a world where the lab is always blamed when underprepared crowns crack. I haven’t had issues with fit with other mills or zirconia, but as always, good preparations and scans/impressions are where it starts whether it’s cast gold or zirconia. The color and translucency of zz pucks are excellent- you won’t hear me argue that- and they are amongst the very few who have om1,om2, and om3 shades, all of which are very popular in the US. The question is whether that 20mm puck is worth almost $500 when good alternatives are half that or less.
 
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grantoz

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so to get this straight your bitching about price even though your happy with the quality and and range of colours that you cant get elsewhere and for the difference per unit of about 5 bucks yep your a special list all right. im pretty sure you can carry that into your price margins somewhere. i even do my most basic crowns in prettau 2 dispersive and i can still make a buck.
 
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cadguru11

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so to get this straight your bitching about price even though your happy with the quality and and range of colours that you cant get elsewhere and for the difference per unit of about 5 bucks yep your a special list all right. im pretty sure you can carry that into your price margins somewhere. i even do my most basic crowns in prettau 2 dispersive and i can still make a buck.
The milling machine has given us so many problems it would take half a day to list them all. Compound that with being locked into their zirconia and titanium, and it’s cause for some discontent. And again, there are many other manufacturers that make fantastic zirconia for a quarter of the price- this is the point. Do you realize this is akin to buying a six figure car that has a little robot that slaps you on the hand when you want to use a different motor oil? Ten years ago, I would have bought the zirconia quality argument, but not today- been there, done that and don’t miss it.
 
CatamountRob

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Do they tell you before you buy it that it’s closed and you can only use their materials?
Yeah, that’s what I thought.
 
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cadguru11

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No, and again, this is the source of the frustration. I explicitly asked before purchase and was told I could use any zirconia. I just got in this forum but I’m not new to the dental lab business.
 
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ah I love the car analogy- you don't throw any type of oil you want into a Ferrari, they recommend only one kind to guarantee their motor. It's like any six figure car, you don't use regular gas when you fill up, you use premium. If you use regular, it voids certain warranties on the motor. Same thing with ZZ, it's their fail safe of guaranteeing their product(s).

You get more with honey, than vinegar. I don't know what kind of machine errors you're having but for example I had a mod glitch due to a software update and had a case I needed to mill- service sent my project to Italy to custom cam it overnight, while service here was looking into my glitch- received my cnc in the morning along with a new update to resolve it completely. Seems like there's a gap between communication. I'm all for frustration but throwing gross generalities out there is petty. If they said you could, then upon unpacking it and turning it on to find you can't? I would've been on the phone or have returned it if that was your major selling feature- there are only a handful of names at zz that pull weight- it wouldn't of been a difficult conversation to have.
 
rkm rdt

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How many crowns from a 500$ disc?
 
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cadguru11

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ah I love the car analogy- you don't throw any type of oil you want into a Ferrari, they recommend only one kind to guarantee their motor. It's like any six figure car, you don't use regular gas when you fill up, you use premium. If you use regular, it voids certain warranties on the motor. Same thing with ZZ, it's their fail safe of guaranteeing their product(s).

You get more with honey, than vinegar. I don't know what kind of machine errors you're having but for example I had a mod glitch due to a software update and had a case I needed to mill- service sent my project to Italy to custom cam it overnight, while service here was looking into my glitch- received my cnc in the morning along with a new update to resolve it completely. Seems like there's a gap between communication. I'm all for frustration but throwing gross generalities out there is petty. If they said you could, then upon unpacking it and turning it on to find you can't? I would've been on the phone or have returned it if that was your major selling feature- there are only a handful of names at zz that pull weight- it wouldn't of been a difficult conversation to have.
As soon as I posted that I regretted not using another analogy! But, then again, your ZZ machine also only comes with a one year warranty- not much of a guarantee if you ask me.
 
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CWilliams

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How many crowns from a 500$ disc?
The $500 disc he speaks of is 30mm.. I have only used those for full arch hybrids. A full arch for $500 in materials, depending on how you want to customize it ex porcelain. Sure you can get cheaper high mpa zr but I'm not kicking and screaming over my entire system for one category of disc.

A 16mm ($360) which is my standard everyday disc- depending on tooth size/ nesting anywhere from 18-22 units. $20/ unit @ 18/ unit per disc.... call me crazy but I'm totally ok with that.

@cadguru11 what is the real problem with your machine? It seems like that is the root of your frustration and you're piling on anything else that maybe irks you to bolster your frustration. Your price argument can barely stand on two legs, you're complaining about a couple bucks when in the larger picture your saving thousands by keeping your work inhouse.
 
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cadguru11

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The $500 disc he speaks of is 30mm.. I have only used those for full arch hybrids. A full arch for $500 in materials, depending on how you want to customize it ex porcelain. Sure you can get cheaper high mpa zr but I'm not kicking and screaming over my entire system for one category of disc.

A 16mm ($360) which is my standard everyday disc- depending on tooth size/ nesting anywhere from 18-22 units. $20/ unit @ 18/ unit per disc.... call me crazy but I'm totally ok with that.

@cadguru11 what is the real problem with your machine? It seems like that is the root of your frustration and you're piling on anything else that maybe irks you to bolster your frustration. Your price argument can barely stand on two legs, you're complaining about a couple bucks when in the larger picture your saving thousands by keeping your work inhouse.
The problems with the machine have ranged from everything from significantly premature spindle failure to pump failure and a whole lot in between. I'm new to this lab forum, and my only goal has been to put out some of the issues my team and I have faced- the puck price is at the bottom of the list. It's been a few years since I bought it and there's scarcely more information out there now then there was then. Regarding your comment on saving thousands though, I will touch on that. I keep the work inhouse because I want to ensure the quality and I enjoy it. That being said, the quality is progressively less of an issue- with zirconia- as time goes on and so many cad/cam labs are milling out great quality for incredible value. When you figure in a six figure equipment investment, and add to that highly trained lab techs with decades of experience- and their well deserved salaries- you don't save much, if any, money producing zirconia. It would be cheaper to just design and send out STL files and finish them in house- hence why many do that. The cost savings used to really come in when so much was porcelain over zirconia copings and frameworks- let's not even talk about metal- and a third party lab may have been charging upwards of $200/unit. Furthermore, depending on how low some of the third party prices are nowadays, the cost to even finish is very close to my own. A prosthodontic practice has a lab because of a multitude reasons, but unfortunately cost savings isn't at the top of the list. Anyone who's ran a lab knows that the cost of the metal and porcelain wasn't what you had in a pfm. Unless you do it all yourself or your technicians work for peanuts, time is where your cost lies.
 
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grantoz

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do you guys have a service contract with Zirkonzahn i have been using ZZ since 2005 they always get back to you and sort things out. Also is this your 1st proper cadcam system because i can tell you now they will all have problems even cerec and its twice the price and does about 10% of the things you do in a lab.
 
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From what I've heard, the two main powder suppliers are Tosoh and the parent company of Upcera(can't remember the name). A majority of the companies producing their own discs use powders from one of these two, then mix for their own formula. I'm pretty sure everyone here already knew this though.
The powder supplier for Upcera is Sinocera and I think now both made a kind of integration and became one entity.
 
Car 54

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Ivoclar's Prime Esthetic is supposed to be available sometime this month or next.
It's going to be more along the line of MT Multi as far as mpa and "y" numbers, and will also be available in a 14mm size disc.
 
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npdynamite

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The problems with the machine have ranged from everything from significantly premature spindle failure to pump failure and a whole lot in between. I'm new to this lab forum, and my only goal has been to put out some of the issues my team and I have faced- the puck price is at the bottom of the list. It's been a few years since I bought it and there's scarcely more information out there now then there was then. Regarding your comment on saving thousands though, I will touch on that. I keep the work inhouse because I want to ensure the quality and I enjoy it. That being said, the quality is progressively less of an issue- with zirconia- as time goes on and so many cad/cam labs are milling out great quality for incredible value. When you figure in a six figure equipment investment, and add to that highly trained lab techs with decades of experience- and their well deserved salaries- you don't save much, if any, money producing zirconia. It would be cheaper to just design and send out STL files and finish them in house- hence why many do that. The cost savings used to really come in when so much was porcelain over zirconia copings and frameworks- let's not even talk about metal- and a third party lab may have been charging upwards of $200/unit. Furthermore, depending on how low some of the third party prices are nowadays, the cost to even finish is very close to my own. A prosthodontic practice has a lab because of a multitude reasons, but unfortunately cost savings isn't at the top of the list. Anyone who's ran a lab knows that the cost of the metal and porcelain wasn't what you had in a pfm. Unless you do it all yourself or your technicians work for peanuts, time is where your cost lies.
"quality is progressively less of an issue" I think this is where the problem lies. You are using a system that only makes sense if quality is absolutely your biggest concern and priority (I'm refering to finished quality of the product, I can't speak to zz's milling machine, I personally would have used an open system and used their pucks) But if you feel like the companies doing outsource milling are doing a "good enough"job you likely aren't the type of person who want's the added quality of a system like zz's
 
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