Ivoclar Digital Programill PM7 ?

[fadi]

Dear Friends ,

Good day.

Can any one help me to get some information :

1- Is the milling open system for the materials
2- What is the deference between servo and stepper motor

Thanks in advance
Best Regards
Fadi

 

[brayks]

I put together this presentation on Servo vs Stepper motors that is part of a MUCH larger presentation I did at LMT a few years ago on CNC machine construction.

Hopefully, it will be helpful.

ServoVsStepper Motors

 

[Sda36]

I put together this presentation on Servo vs Stepper motors that is part of a MUCH larger presentation I did at LMT a few years ago on CNC machine construction.

Hopefully, it will be helpful.

ServoVsStepper Motors

Hi Brayks, what motors does the Versamill use vs this ivoclar unit? Thanks, just curious.

 

[Patrick Coon]

Hi Fadi,

Yes the system is open to any 98.5mm disk.

The PM7 has both Servo and Step motors. Step motors where you need the precision (all milling axis) and Servo motors where we can speed up some things between milling (the disk changer and tool magazine).

 

[brayks]

Interesting...
First time I ever heard the claim that stepper motors provided greater precision over closed-loop servo drives, especially in an open-loop drive system. I’d be surprised if repeatability was any better than 5 microns, but you never know...

Stepper motors are chiefly used in dental mills to reduce cost or (increase profits). All other machines are listed as stepper motors (unknown if open-loop or the much preferred closed-loop drive system).

Interesting to me that the specifications shown on the website indicate the preferred servo motors on the PM7. It now appears that this is a partially accurate representation and that the PM7 is actually a hybrid machine. Not a marketing method I would subscribe to. https://www.ivoclarvivadent.us/compare/milling

Further examination of the spec’s posted on the web leads me to believe the spindle used is likely the Z45-D160.02 S3. Unless it’s another model or a custom spindle made specifically for Ivoclar, the posted power of 970 watts is the maximum rating and only for 5s. The real rating, S1-continuous, is only 460 wartts with a 8Ncm torque rating (the most important rating),see: https://www.alfredjaeger.de/en/z-line/KS2-10-80-2-IP.html

This of course is only my assessment made by examining the spec sheets published on the web and adding 2+2 to make an educated estimate at what is really “behind the panels”

Compare the above to the Versamill 5X200 which has high precision closed-loop servo drives on all axes (1 micron repeatability),3.0 kW Max spindle (approx 1300 watt S1-continuous) with about 40Ncm S1 continuous torque.

Just one fellas opinion, YMMV.

 

[Sda36]

Interesting...
First time I ever heard the claim that stepper motors provided greater precision over closed-loop servo drives, especially in an open-loop drive system. I’d be surprised if repeatability was any better than 5 microns, but you never know...

Stepper motors are chiefly used in dental mills to reduce cost or (increase profits). All other machines are listed as stepper motors (unknown if open-loop or the much preferred closed-loop drive system).

Interesting to me that the specifications shown on the website indicate the preferred servo motors on the PM7. It now appears that this is a partially accurate representation and that the PM7 is actually a hybrid machine. Not a marketing method I would subscribe to. https://www.ivoclarvivadent.us/compare/milling

Further examination of the spec’s posted on the web leads me to believe the spindle used is likely the Z45-D160.02 S3. Unless it’s another model or a custom spindle made specifically for Ivoclar, the posted power of 970 watts is the maximum rating and only for 5s. The real rating, S1-continuous, is only 460 wartts with a 8Ncm torque rating (the most important rating),see: https://www.alfredjaeger.de/en/z-line/KS2-10-80-2-IP.html

This of course is only my assessment made by examining the spec sheets published on the web and adding 2+2 to make an educated estimate at what is really “behind the panels”

Compare the above to the Versamill 5X200 which has high precision closed-loop servo drives on all axes (1 micron repeatability),3.0 kW Max spindle (approx 1300 watt S1-continuous) with about 40Ncm S1 continuous torque.

Just one fellas opinion, YMMV.

JMHO but rather well said Brayks

 

[arif]

Interesting...
First time I ever heard the claim that stepper motors provided greater precision over closed-loop servo drives, especially in an open-loop drive system. I’d be surprised if repeatability was any better than 5 microns, but you never know...

Stepper motors are chiefly used in dental mills to reduce cost or (increase profits). All other machines are listed as stepper motors (unknown if open-loop or the much preferred closed-loop drive system).

Interesting to me that the specifications shown on the website indicate the preferred servo motors on the PM7. It now appears that this is a partially accurate representation and that the PM7 is actually a hybrid machine. Not a marketing method I would subscribe to. https://www.ivoclarvivadent.us/compare/milling

Further examination of the spec’s posted on the web leads me to believe the spindle used is likely the Z45-D160.02 S3. Unless it’s another model or a custom spindle made specifically for Ivoclar, the posted power of 970 watts is the maximum rating and only for 5s. The real rating, S1-continuous, is only 460 wartts with a 8Ncm torque rating (the most important rating),see: https://www.alfredjaeger.de/en/z-line/KS2-10-80-2-IP.html

This of course is only my assessment made by examining the spec sheets published on the web and adding 2+2 to make an educated estimate at what is really “behind the panels”

Compare the above to the Versamill 5X200 which has high precision closed-loop servo drives on all axes (1 micron repeatability),3.0 kW Max spindle (approx 1300 watt S1-continuous) with about 40Ncm S1 continuous torque.

Just one fellas opinion, YMMV.

hi also please give some inputs of what is the diffrence between analog servo motor vs digital servo motor, we are thinking of this cadcam www.redon.com ,and they are claiming with digital ac servo motor milling will be very fast and accuracy also they are mentioned 8microns compared to 22 microns of others.

 

[Patrick Coon]

First time I ever heard the claim that stepper motors provided greater precision over closed-loop servo drives, especially in an open-loop drive system. I’d be surprised if repeatability was any better than 5 microns, but you never know...

Not being an engineer, I have to take the word of the people training me on the reasoning behind their use.

Thank you for your honest opinion. It is always welcome.

 

[brayks]

hi also please give some inputs of what is the diffrence between analog servo motor vs digital servo motor, we are thinking of this cadcam www.redon.com ,and they are claiming with digital ac servo motor milling will be very fast and accuracy also they are mentioned 8microns compared to 22 microns of others.

Without getting uber-technical it goes to the input to the motors themselves.

Technically speaking, digital servo motors CAN be more "accurate" and potentially faster however there is much more to the accuracy and speed than the motors.

Firstly, due to the number of very small individual point-to-point moves, the acceleration and deceleration times required for each move and the small size of a restoration, the machine really does not ever reach the maximum speed potential of the motor therefore you would never really realize any potential speed benefit in a dental application.

Regarding accuracy. Firstly I question accuracy quoted. If they mean positional accuracy, the Versamill 5X200 accuracy is ±5.0µm with all important repeatability being ±3.0µm.

However machine accuracy is only part of the story.

The important, true measure of accuracy is the accuracy of the finished restoration (i.e. surface finish, fit, margin integrity, margin reinforcement, required post-machining hand-work, etc.).

True accuracy frankly has more to do with: machine construction (rigidity, spindle (rpm range, bearing type/number of),torque and duty cycle, axes way/guide system (type, material, pre-load) and drive system (open-loop/closed-loop, stepper/servo motor, ballscrews (diameter, material, pre-load, etc.),CAM software, machining templates, tooling and fixturing. These are the areas that anyone looking to purchase a dental machining center should be concentrating on.

IMO, the type of servo, in dental applications in inconsequential compared to all the other more significant factors mentioned above.

I hope this helps...
Steve

 

[fadi]

Hi Fadi,

Yes the system is open to any 98.5mm disk.

.

Thank you all for the nice and important information


for using 98.5 disk , shull we buy wet lable like we did with weiland before , in this case i have to pay for each disc ?

Best Regards
Fadi

 

[Patrick Coon]

While the PM7 does require RFID tags, (like the wieland select) unlike the select the PM7 comes with a reusable (rewritable) RFID container that screws into the disk holders. So when you send the NC file to the machine you take one more step and write the job to the RFID container. This will associate the job in the machine to the disk holder/disk.

 

[arif]

Without getting uber-technical it goes to the input to the motors themselves.

Technically speaking, digital servo motors CAN be more "accurate" and potentially faster however there is much more to the accuracy and speed than the motors.

Firstly, due to the number of very small individual point-to-point moves, the acceleration and deceleration times required for each move and the small size of a restoration, the machine really does not ever reach the maximum speed potential of the motor therefore you would never really realize any potential speed benefit in a dental application.

Regarding accuracy. Firstly I question accuracy quoted. If they mean positional accuracy, the Versamill 5X200 accuracy is ±5.0µm with all important repeatability being ±3.0µm.

However machine accuracy is only part of the story.

The important, true measure of accuracy is the accuracy of the finished restoration (i.e. surface finish, fit, margin integrity, margin reinforcement, required post-machining hand-work, etc.).

True accuracy frankly has more to do with: machine construction (rigidity, spindle (rpm range, bearing type/number of),torque and duty cycle, axes way/guide system (type, material, pre-load) and drive system (open-loop/closed-loop, stepper/servo motor, ballscrews (diameter, material, pre-load, etc.),CAM software, machining templates, tooling and fixturing. These are the areas that anyone looking to purchase a dental machining center should be concentrating on.

IMO, the type of servo, in dental applications in inconsequential compared to all the other more significant factors mentioned above.

I hope this helps...
Steve

thank you for the valuable info.

 

[J Pierce]

Anyone here buy one yet? Interested in reviews of this mill!

 

[2thm8kr]

Anyone here buy one yet? Interested in reviews of this mill!

https://dentallabnetwork.com/forums...-own-and-whats-the-lifespan.29018/post-297702

 

[Kam Yu]

Interesting...
First time I ever heard the claim that stepper motors provided greater precision over closed-loop servo drives, especially in an open-loop drive system. I’d be surprised if repeatability was any better than 5 microns, but you never know...

Stepper motors are chiefly used in dental mills to reduce cost or (increase profits). All other machines are listed as stepper motors (unknown if open-loop or the much preferred closed-loop drive system).

Interesting to me that the specifications shown on the website indicate the preferred servo motors on the PM7. It now appears that this is a partially accurate representation and that the PM7 is actually a hybrid machine. Not a marketing method I would subscribe to. https://www.ivoclarvivadent.us/compare/milling

Further examination of the spec’s posted on the web leads me to believe the spindle used is likely the Z45-D160.02 S3. Unless it’s another model or a custom spindle made specifically for Ivoclar, the posted power of 970 watts is the maximum rating and only for 5s. The real rating, S1-continuous, is only 460 wartts with a 8Ncm torque rating (the most important rating),see: https://www.alfredjaeger.de/en/z-line/KS2-10-80-2-IP.html

This of course is only my assessment made by examining the spec sheets published on the web and adding 2+2 to make an educated estimate at what is really “behind the panels”

Compare the above to the Versamill 5X200 which has high precision closed-loop servo drives on all axes (1 micron repeatability),3.0 kW Max spindle (approx 1300 watt S1-continuous) with about 40Ncm S1 continuous torque.

Just one fellas opinion, YMMV.

Thanks for that explanation! Learned some new things on the hardware side of things.

 

[J Pierce]

https://dentallabnetwork.com/forums...-own-and-whats-the-lifespan.29018/post-297702

Thanks 2thm8kr! I have read the thread and didn't see any reviews or info regarding the PM7? Maybe I'm blind
I guess I'm looking for people who have purchased and if they love it or hate it!! Our rep was was all about this mill and how badass it was and its going to be the best thing since sliced bread blah blah and I haven't heard of anyone buying this mill. We were interested in the Ivoclar digital dentures and haven't really seen or heard much about that either..

 

[bigbrush]

Hi J Pierce,
I think your not blind. Ask your rep how many of this mill he has sold and he should give you a contact to one who has experince with his supermill

 

[brayks]

I would love to hear some reviews on these machines.

I wonder what the rep feels is so "bad ass" about it.

Any-hoo, to help in weeding the the BS that may rep's are putting out there touting the glorious-ness (is this a real word?) of their machines, I put together a checklist of important features/capabilities that potential buyers might use to evaluate machines and the suppliers capabilities.

If anyone is interested, please shoot me a PM and I would be glad to share.

Steve

 

[grantoz]

its a nice mill but has taken ages to get it going i saw it at the singapore digital dentistry show a couple of years back and its only really ready for sale now.their chair side mill has been pulled from the market ive heard and both were very expensive i was looking at that mill as an alternative to Zirkonzahn ,see i do think of other brands but it wasnt ready to go so i went with the m4 instead.

 

[harmonylab]

we have a PM7. we love ivoclar and mostly use their stuff exclusively, but our experience with this particular mill has been less than stellar.

we got it sometime in October or so. it had all kinds of different problems, and eventually the machine completely broke down. they sent a guy, who worked on it. it worked for a few jobs, before the machine broke down again. problems with b axis and tool changer. another tech came, stated that it broke because of a loose part, didn't have the parts to fix it, did what he could and left. it wasn't working, so they sent another machine a few weeks later. the replacement machine was pretty much dead on arrival. got a calibration disk out before going belly up. it's been a week, and it's still down, and we have no idea when we will have a working machine.

when the machine was working, it was very good. our dentist absolutely loves the digital dentures from it.

edit: current one's irreparable I'm told. we're getting sent another one soon. it's been frustrating but thankfully ivoclar's support is always top notch.