ivoclar D.sign and veneers

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envisiondental

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Heard there were some d. sign gurus on here and thought I'd join and ask about a current case I have..
I'm making a #9 veneer using the d. sign porcelain... firing temp is 870c and wondering if adding a contact later using the add'on/correction firing at 750c will effect margins or fit.. of course I'm talking about after the refractory/polyvest material has been sandblasted out.. just veneer alone.

thanks in advance for any input
 
sixonice

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Heard there were some d. sign gurus on here and thought I'd join and ask about a current case I have..
I'm making a #9 veneer using the d. sign porcelain... firing temp is 870c and wondering if adding a contact later using the add'on/correction firing at 750c will effect margins or fit.. of course I'm talking about after the refractory/polyvest material has been sandblasted out.. just veneer alone.

thanks in advance for any input

d.SIGN makes nice refractory veneers. Couple things to remember: yes, the firing temp ON METAL is 870C. On a refractory die, you need to add 5-10C to the 870 (to heat soak the refractory die better. Refractory materials don't conduct heat well like alloy, hence to bump in temp). Be certain to hydrate your refractory die really well and use a 10 MINUTE DRY TIME! You will want to do a "wash" bake first, then fire that then do another build. Typically, refractory units take 3 to 4 bakes. Now for the correction material. I have done add-on with the d.SIGN add-on material doing refractory just fine. Just BE SURE to use a custom peg putty material (the fluffy white material in syringes you can buy all over) to support the veneer internally. This stuff does a great job at supporting and protecting the unit from deformation. Hope that helps you some.
 
sixonice

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GREAT! Let us know how the case turned out for you. Hope it's awesome! Refractory is a tough, tough deal (labor & time wise) but for some certain preps, it is the only way to get er' done esthetically with no room.
 
Travis

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Nice write up, I am sure anyone using d.sign will someday need this info.

Thanks six.....
 
Al.

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Before I started pressing I did alot of laminates using refractory.
I had a 1400 F add on porc that worked on unsupported laminates, but I never found a really low fusing stain that worked. That was 200 F lower then the firing temp of the porc. I never had a slumping.
You may find an add on porc that fires low enough and is compatible with dsign to do it unsupported.
Emax add on porc fires at less then 1300 F.
 
Clear Precision Dental

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I've tried doing some refractory dSIGN veneers, but had some varied success. Would you mind describing your die fabrication steps? Also the devesting procedure. This is an area I would like to learn. Until then, I've had to send to other support labs. Thanks.
 
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Mike S

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add on to feldspathic veneer

heres how i do it, after sandblasting the refractory stone i fit the veneer to die i use "Ducera LFC T(Transpa)" which fires at 680 very safe temp, also i fire my dentin and incisal at 900, i belive 870 is very low for feldspathic.:)
 
Al.

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I've tried doing some refractory dSIGN veneers, but had some varied success. Would you mind describing your die fabrication steps? Also the devesting procedure. This is an area I would like to learn. Until then, I've had to send to other support labs. Thanks.
I never made dies, After the glaze, I used a seperating disk and sectioned the investment right to the veneer than snapped them. If I ever had one snap uneven or a bit onto the other unit I would do an add on before I devested or touch it up with my low fusing add on materiial after devesting.

After I had all my units sectioned, I would cut the rest of the excess off with the same seperating disk, then grind 90% of the investment out of the veneer with a round bur, then blast the rest out.

I have made dies using those reverse pins and even those pins that you can fire, but I found it easier and accurate (for me) to build the whole case on the solid refractory model.

Six gave some excellent tips, or actually some necessary tips for sucess, on doing the build up.
 
TheLabGuy

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I just use the e.max A-O add-on (correction) material for my d.sign veneers when needing a correction. It fires about 100 degrees lower so it doesn't effect your d.sign material and YES, its very compatible and looks very nice, much better than the d.sign correction. Hope that helps.
 
Clear Precision Dental

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I actually need more info on creating the refractory cast. I used GC Orbit refractory material poured directly into the PVS impression. Then dried the cast in the oven according the manufacturer directions. I placed a refractory die spacer, thinking it might seal the material better and make devesting easier. I also was not soaking the cast.
I will not be able to afford any pressing system (for quite a while, especially in the current economy) so I am stuck with either refractory methods or outsourcing to other labs and giving up income, reputation and control.

Perhaps this should be another thread, but could you describe method and materials for creating refractory cast and how you manipulate it during the fabrication of veneers? I will be using dSIGN porcelain. Do you use higher temps? etc...
I hate to sound like an idiot, but I could really use some help in adding at least some, all porcelain restoration to our menu (that are not outsourced).

The posts on this site are great! Thanks so very much!
 
sixonice

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d.SIGN makes nice refractory veneers. Couple things to remember: yes, the firing temp ON METAL is 870C. On a refractory die, you need to add 5-10C to the 870 (to heat soak the refractory die better. Refractory materials don't conduct heat well like alloy, hence to bump in temp). Be certain to hydrate your refractory die really well and use a 10 MINUTE DRY TIME! You will want to do a "wash" bake first, then fire that then do another build. Typically, refractory units take 3 to 4 bakes. Now for the correction material. I have done add-on with the d.SIGN add-on material doing refractory just fine. Just BE SURE to use a custom peg putty material (the fluffy white material in syringes you can buy all over) to support the veneer internally. This stuff does a great job at supporting and protecting the unit from deformation. Hope that helps you some.
 
Al.

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Clear dont give up on doing your own refractory veneers. Their easy to do.
Six has good tips that you must use to be sucessful.
Your big mistake was probably not soaking your model before your build. I soak in distilled water for about 1 or 2 minutes.
I never had luck using a refractory die spacer so I releaved the inside of the veneer after I fit it to make space for the bonding materal.

As far as getting a pressing system, youd be suprised at how much more work it will bring into your lab.
I borrowed, I think it was around $17,000 from our local bank to get the basic system. Thats less than a car loan. The additional work I got from the Drs that I was already working with, paid off the system with in 5 months. It suprised me at how much all ceramic work they were sending out to other labs.
IMO, it is not a risk buying a press system.
 
Clear Precision Dental

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Al, what press system did you go with? Is the devesting also a major pain or did you invest in an autodevesting machine as well? Is it a lot quicker?
 
TheLabGuy

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Why would anyone want refractory veneers? Empress esthetic is so much easier and nicer to work with. Maybe I'm in the dark here on something, but the last time I checked, porcelain shrinks, you can never get an exact seal around those margins unless you over-extend them on the refractory. Why mess with it at all, pressing is way easier and more accurate.
 
Al.

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Al, what press system did you go with? Is the devesting also a major pain or did you invest in an autodevesting machine as well? Is it a lot quicker?

Clear, I got ivoclars emax/esthetic. I dont know what the complete system runs now but it was around $20,000. I got the basic and added on as I needed.
They have since expanded it with LT ingots (press and stain posteriors) POM and in Feb HT ingots are coming out. HT is high trans, and it will be a lithium disilicate that has the tran. of estheic for a high strength press and stain technique for venners. But you can also cut back and add on incisal.

There are alot of systems to choose from and ivoclar is one of the most expensive, but is the most complete and it has great name recognition among dentists. Ivoclar has spent a ton of $ advertising.
It is much easier for me to market emax crns, which most dentists have heard of then say, as an example, authentic crns which they have not heard of.
Yes devesting is a major pain. I bought the autodevester and I love it!
Ck out the thread I posted in the equipment section on it.
 
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TheLabGuy

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Clear, I got ivoclars emax/esthetic. I dont know what the complete system runs now but it was around $20,000.

I just bought the basic system.....emax, esthetic, d.sign, and MO ingots and it only cost me 5,500 for everything.
I bought the Whip Mix Pro Press oven from harris w/pump 3,700. Got some all-ceramic whip mix investment 100 dollars. Already to knock it out now.

Total cost: 9,300.00
 
Al.

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I just bought the basic system.....emax, esthetic, d.sign, and MO ingots and it only cost me 5,500 for everything.
I bought the Whip Mix Pro Press oven from harris w/pump 3,700. Got some all-ceramic whip mix investment 100 dollars. Already to knock it out now.

Total cost: 9,300.00
Thats good, its the ivoclar furnace and accessaries that gets you. A couple of years ago they told me I had to go to NY and take the course and that I had to buy their furnace with the system. I think their furnace alone is around $10,000. ive never used any other so I dont know how it compares to other pressing furnaces.
I plan to buy neys pressing furnace as a back up, and to fire all ceramic crns in.
If my furnace goes out on me Im in deep doo doo with no back up.

Can you also fire porc with the pro press?
 
TheLabGuy

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Yes you can Al. I do. and you're right, those ep furnaces are outrageously priced. Only if my accountant said I needed to purchase more equipment for tax reasons would I ever think about buying an ivoclar oven.......period. As for the classes, I'm not sure, I'm LVI Certified (sponsored by ivoclar),so I thinks that may have counted for it.
 
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envisiondental

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So I've done about 12 or so veneers/pjc's since the original post..So far so good.. have had positive feedback on the cases as well.
Labguy mentioned why anyone would be doing/wanting refractory style veneers.. vs. empress esthetic..
I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to Empress esthetic.. all I know is from start to finish the refractory method is really easy.. super cost effective and so far been successful. I have no idea strength differences between the 2 or how much time the empress method takes. I would be interested because I have nothing against changing methods. The only aspect of the refractory veneer and pjc that I'm at all worried about is strength.. are these gonna end up breaking in 6 months or a year? .. more likely than empress esthetic?
Also I use Monotrac articulators for these which make the whole process super easy.. single pour.. and only about a $1 each.
Welcome To Monotrac Articulation
 

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