Is there a bad zirconia

[npdynamite]

The topic of picking a zirconia is a very well worn topic on here and I almost don't want to start another thread about it, but here goes.

I've been scouring dln and occasionally other places for weeks for information on picking zirconia and there is a TON of information. Unfortunately I haven't found that the ton of information is that helpful when the rubber meets the road of actually making the selection. Now I know that sounds like a complaint or a bad thing, but I don't neccesarily think that it is, it seems to me that the Zirconia market has gotten good enough that for the most part there aren't truly "bad" zirconias anymore (I'm sure there are plenty, but I'm mostly refering to the larger more common names)

I get the impression that if I focus in on almost any one zirconia brand and start looking at user experiences with it, you get everything from "it's the best thing ever" to "it's crap don't buy it". Not litterally of course but yall get the point. If I look at marketing and talk to the companies I find that they all have pretty similar offerings with their own spin and you just have to trust their marketing that their way is better, but of course they can't all be better. (but wait, does that mean their marketing isn't 100% true at all times?!)

My impression from that observation is that most if not all of the main brands of zirconia are pretty good if not great and the real decision has more to do with which one happens to work best for that particular lab. The factors determining that being that their particular sintering oven works well with and one that the ceramist finds easy to work with and achieve accurate shades with. Of course both of these factors can be widely varying.

If those factors are in fact the biggest factors determining which zirconia is best for a lab, is there any way to avoid simply getting a bunch of pucks and running a lot of trials to choose a zirconia? and am I wrong and are there some companies producing truly crappy zirconia? If so how would one identify it?

I hope this isn't too broad of an approach to the question, I just wanted to see if anybody has found better way to either choose a zirconia than simply trial and error. Or see if there is any simple way to at least weed out the zircs that you want to avoid. It just seems most of the user experience cases are more anecdotal than conclusive.


Also just because I'm sure it will come up, I am in no way talking about the benefits of transitioning pucks vs. non transitional or 5y vs 4y vs 3y or any of those things. I'm specifically talking about one companies comparable offering to another companies almost identical offering

 

[CatamountRob]

@disturbed ?

 

[grantoz]

I think you need to look at the specs of the zirconia ,what its recommendations are for where to use it .I would also say you must read the fine print for example they say 1200mpa strength but in small writing its only 650mpa in the incisal 3rd another one is you can use it in full arches but again in small writing you must have a minimum thickness of 1.2mm but in large writing for single units you see min thickness is .5mm. I would stay away from anything from China the results are inconsistent to say the least i have been given many samples to try and they are average to say the least. Everyone one on this site knows im pro Zirkonzahn but its because ive used their various Zirconias over the last 16years years including right thru all the teething troubles that other people had when disturbed was around. When others were failing we had virtually zero problems. So that also brings me to education you must have it again Zirkonzahn provides this. So in short yes there are bad Zi's around you must do your research otherwise you will end up with some.

 

[npdynamite]

I think you need to look at the specs of the zirconia ,what its recommendations are for where to use it .I would also say you must read the fine print for example they say 1200mpa strength but in small writing its only 650mpa in the incisal 3rd another one is you can use it in full arches but again in small writing you must have a minimum thickness of 1.2mm but in large writing for single units you see min thickness is .5mm. I would stay away from anything from China the results are inconsistent to say the least i have been given many samples to try and they are average to say the least. Everyone one on this site knows im pro Zirkonzahn but its because ive used their various Zirconias over the last 16years years including right thru all the teething troubles that other people had when disturbed was around. When others were failing we had virtually zero problems. So that also brings me to education you must have it again Zirkonzahn provides this. So in short yes there are bad Zi's around you must do your research otherwise you will end up with some.

Thank you, I definetly look out for that type of stuff. (for example Prime seems to do a really bad job communicating the varying strength)

Zirkonzahn is definetly one of the zirconias on my radar simply because they seem to have been dedicated to doing extremely high end esthetic zirconia restorations for a long time.

So just for a little background on myself, I have been in dental CAD/CAM for around 10 years, this is just my first time being part of the decision making process and not just part of it, but soley responsible for figuring it all out. Back in the day I seem to recall a lot of zirconias, including some of the big name brands that seem to be pretty popular now, having a lot more issues including things like extreme fragility in the green state. I believe that issue has been dealt with by isostatically pressing zirconia, which appears to be widely adopted now.

Those are types of concerns I have though. Things that might not come through just reading standard specs. Like, should I be looking at the source of the zirconia powder? Thats just an arbatrary example but it just seems like there should be something availible within the spec sheets of zirconia that gives the end user some way of choosing what is right for them without just having to try a bunch of different options. I realize that this may simply not exist, but I like techy details so I at least have to try to find out

 

[Car 54]

Going with the more highly recognized vendors who have more at stake reputation wise regarding the zirconia they're putting out there,
I believe also comes into play ZZ, Argen, Ivoclar, etc. But I also agree that a lot of the zirconia brands/vendors have gone through a learning curve
and have improved. I tend to stick with companies that I know, and have been around for awhile, compared to the "we have the cheapest zirconia out there"
(and maybe for a reason) companies.

 

[npdynamite]

Going with the more highly recognized vendors who have more at stake reputation wise regarding the zirconia they're putting out there,
I believe also comes into play ZZ, Argen, Ivoclar, etc. But I also agree that a lot of the zirconia brands/vendors have gone through a learning curve
and have improved. I tend to stick with companies that I know, and have been around for awhile, compared to the "we have the cheapest zirconia out there"
(and maybe for a reason) companies.

That certainly makes sense. It is good to see that there doesn't seem to be big brands with truly crappy zirconias any more. We are definately not trying to go for the cheapest product available. Part of my goal is to avoid having to use a bunch of different brands. I'm hoping to find one company and use their products for high end esthetics, basic posteriors and zirc hybrid abutments rather than a different brand for each. I also am wanting to avoid product inconsistancy. Currently we are working with a milling center and when we move away from that we will likely be changing our materials up. I just don't want to change several times.

It may be that we just need to stick with the material we are currently using and run tests with other products at the same time internally until we have a system we like and are happy with. If thats the only way to figure this out it's what we will do, but anything I can do to narrow down the list of products to buy is going to help.

I currently have a spreadsheet of zirconia I'm working on trying to fill in all of the relevent data I can get to compare products and I'm up to 6 companies (I'll probably add a 7th today) that all seem like they have a good product and all have offerings that will fill all of our zirconia needs and it still is lacking at least 3 big names that are popular on here

 

[Car 54]

I know what you're saying regarding working with one companies zirconia. It can be done, but if you had 2 differing companies options due to ones strength or translucency, I still think that works. Even Sevan who has lectured for Argen and uses their zirconia, mentioned they use some of Ivoclar's Prime and MT Multi.

I'm trying to simplify things myself. At one time I used about 4 different zirconias, but am phasing out of Beyond/Beyond+ and just using Argen HT+ and Multi, then trying more of the STML. I do like the look of the MT Multi.

 

[grantoz]

i used to use a cheaper Zi for my basic range of crowns now i use the same Zi for everything because even in my cheaper range the saving in labour using the good stuff is much better than the 5 bucks a unit i save on the price of the Zi .I use Zirkonzahn prettau 2 dispersive it is fantastic i just put more love into the crown depending on what range im making it has been a complete game changer for me. I would definitely try the main ones and pick the brand you like i wouldnt worry about the source of the zi too much but i would worry about where the disc is made

 

[npdynamite]

I know what you're saying regarding working with one companies zirconia. It can be done, but if you had 2 differing companies options due to ones strength or translucency, I still think that works. Even Sevan who has lectured for Argen and uses their zirconia, mentioned they use some of Ivoclar's Prime and MT Multi.

I'm trying to simplify things myself. At one time I used about 4 different zirconias, but am phasing out of Beyond/Beyond+ and just using Argen HT+ and Multi, then trying more of the STML. I do like the look of the MT Multi.

Ok, thank you, it may end up being that I can't find everything I need with one company. It is just kind of interesting and overwhelming starting with a clean slate and having nothing tying me to any particular brand. It feels like a great opportunity though to really idealize my process.

 

[npdynamite]

i used to use a cheaper Zi for my basic range of crowns now i use the same Zi for everything because even in my cheaper range the saving in labour using the good stuff is much better than the 5 bucks a unit i save on the price of the Zi .I use Zirkonzahn prettau 2 dispersive it is fantastic i just put more love into the crown depending on what range im making it has been a complete game changer for me. I would definitely try the main ones and pick the brand you like i wouldnt worry about the source of the zi too much but i would worry about where the disc is made

Interesting, I see that you are a big fan of Zirkonzahn's prettau and it is something that I've been aware of for a long time but I have never used at all. Do you find that you have great success with their products because the zirconia itself is fantastic, or do you use their pre-sintering shades and does this in your opinion make enough of a difference that it's worth going with their system?

One of things I'm curious about as I dig further into zirconia choices is whether going with a system that requires more pre-sintering work will save enough on the back end (not grinding hard materials, less firing cycles) to make spending that time up front worth it. Or if going with pre-shaded transitional pucks and trying to minimize pre-sintering work is the better way to save time and materials etc.

 

[Car 54]

Ok, thank you, it may end up being that I can't find everything I need with one company. It is just kind of interesting and overwhelming starting with a clean slate and having nothing tying me to any particular brand. It feels like a great opportunity though to really idealize my process.

Yes, you're on the good side of it now, choice wise, where some of the dust has settled and some of the more consistent and predictable zirconia's have risen to the top due to technology advances and labs feedback and working results with them. You've also noted the consistent vendors names a lot of us use here, and the other thread.
.
I think it was about 4-5 years ago that user name posted a list of all the zirconia's he knew about, it was pretty long and confusing as far as what to use or consider.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

i don't think this question has a straightforward answer unless you'd be willing to only talk about scientific studies on specific brands and not "technician's experiences"

 

[grantoz]

i use their pre sintered transitional trans zi i fire the stuff over night very few problems the zi looks fantastic

 

[npdynamite]

Yes, you're on the good side of it now, choice wise, where some of the dust has settled and some of the more consistent and predictable zirconia's have risen to the top due to technology advances and labs feedback and working results with them. You've also noted the consistent vendors names a lot of us use here, and the other thread.
.
I think it was about 4-5 years ago that user name posted a list of all the zirconia's he knew about, it was pretty long and confusing as far as what to use or consider.

Yes it does certainly feel that way, it seems to be a good time to be in the market. Too many good options is a good problem to have, I'm probably over analyzing this a bit

 

[npdynamite]

i don't think this question has a straightforward answer unless you'd be willing to only talk about scientific studies on specific brands and not "technician's experiences"

I'm really bad at the hole straightforward thing. So where does one find these scientific studies on specific brands? and if I were to dig in to that do you find that the going through the results of the studies has real world correlation?

I find technician's experiences to be very helpful, especially once you are working with a product and are having difficulties, they can provide great insights. That said everyone has different ways of handling things, different equipment, and over time things get tweaked to dial a product in to an individuals preference. For that reason I find it can be difficult to use others experience with a product to determine what will be best for me.

Part of what I'm getting at is that it seems that the current situation of selecting zirconia is to read user experiences to narrow the field down to 4-6 brands, use their marketing in combinations along with the user experiences that are most concerning to narrow it down to 2 or 3, run tests on those to pick which you most prefer. I made this post to see if anybody was aware of anything I'm missing that would allow someone to better determine what material would be best for them utilizing specs rather than user experience

 

[npdynamite]

i use their pre sintered transitional trans zi i fire the stuff over night very few problems the zi looks fantastic

ok, so you aren't using there pre-sinter stains in conjunction with the Dispersive?

 

[ztech]

Unless you get off the beaten path, zirconia products are the same......Tosoh zirconia powder is used by almost all the major manufacturers. Why does that matter? Tosoh is the one doing the research and development to bring the different types of zirconia to the market ( Ht, Ht+. UltraTrans). That's why you will see all the manufacturers come out with the different types at roughly the same time.
The differentiation between the manufacturers that use the powders are their process to color and make the pucks.

 

[grantoz]

thats the important bit Ztech, thats why i said check out where the discs are made at the begining of this thread which i believe is a good thread .Ive had guys contact me saying they get their discs from the same company in China that makes Zirkonzahn blocks at half the price do i what to buy some which is bull5hit as ive been to the factory in northern Italy and watched the discs been made . Thats why i dont like Chinese discs they will tell you anything for a sale.

 

[npdynamite]

Unless you get off the beaten path, zirconia products are the same......Tosoh zirconia powder is used by almost all the major manufacturers. Why does that matter? Tosoh is the one doing the research and development to bring the different types of zirconia to the market ( Ht, Ht+. UltraTrans). That's why you will see all the manufacturers come out with the different types at roughly the same time.
The differentiation between the manufacturers that use the powders are their process to color and make the pucks.

Good information, thank you. How do you find out what powder a particular manufactur is using? I haven't seen this information when going through data sheets, but I could just be blind

 

[npdynamite]

thats the important bit Ztech, thats why i said check out where the discs are made at the begining of this thread which i believe is a good thread .Ive had guys contact me saying they get their discs from the same company in China that makes Zirkonzahn blocks at half the price do i what to buy some which is bull5hit as ive been to the factory in northern Italy and watched the discs been made . Thats why i dont like Chinese discs they will tell you anything for a sale.

I certainly agree that is hugely important, I'll be staying away from anything that I'm not at least confident is genuinely what it says it is. I also get annoyed when companies use the "it's made in the same factory as company x,y, or z's product" becuase that tells you nothing of the quality control that the competing companies have put in place within the factory.