inline cracking

G

grabo

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3 1
#1
Hi guys
i am using creation porcelain with algeloy np with no problems but when i try and build up an anterior crown with Inline i always tend to get a crack running across the incisal from M to distal. The CTE are correct for both porcelains, i just cant understand why it only cracks with inline. Any Hints
 
O

odchamp

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3
#2
Go over your frame preparation, sandblast with virgin grain, and make sure if you need to oxidise it, it is at the correct temp and fired per instructions.
This is very important don't cut corners in any way.
good luck
 
A

adamb4321

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70 3
#3
Check your framework design,the crack your describing is a classic indication of lack of support. Inline doesn't like more than 2mm of unsupported porcelain, other than that you may need as slow cooling cycle, what is the CTE of the metal?
 
N

nvarras7

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11
#4
I had a problem with cracking with Inline a fellow tech here in Greece told me to raise my firing temp. because the Firing chart in the Inline book is per the new Ivoclar furnaces. the Ney furnace I use fires it well at 945 celcius versus 910 that book states, and yes My furnace is properly calbrated.
My cracking problem is now history and the colors are much more lifelike.
 
anil patel

anil patel

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#5
I had a problem with cracking with Inline a fellow tech here in Greece told me to raise my firing temp. because the Firing chart in the Inline book is per the new Ivoclar furnaces. the Ney furnace I use fires it well at 945 celcius versus 910 that book states, and yes My furnace is properly calbrated.
My cracking problem is now history and the colors are much more lifelike.
my friend u should be use slow cooling ,whic furnesh do u have ?
 
J Rodrigo

J Rodrigo

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#6
This ceramic is very sensitive, although beautiful, also have many problems with cracks,and retarded cracks already in the mouth even,'ve tried everything, with slow cooling in some cases the cracks appear. I believe also that the main cause is lack of support , but in laboratory with high production , structures impeccable are not always possible. I'm almost leaving the ceramic inline.
 
NicelyMKV

NicelyMKV

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#7
Probably the paste opaque.... quit using it and never had another crack
 
C

charles007

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1,046 16
#9
If you know for sure the cte matches, its probably thick porcelain and you need to slow cool....More importantly you need to change alloys for a closer match.
Np alloys...opaque is always fired higher ... I bet its in your manual....
Never heard of underfired opaque causing checking.... just bad bonding and incorrect shades..........
 
NicelyMKV

NicelyMKV

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#10
The paste has composite binders that can cause issues like they are talking about. We constantly had cracks appear towards the end of the case. I would grind into the crack and it would have a small spot or two that would pop off clean. I started using powder(which I have always preferred) and never had a single issue after that. As a matter of fact, I quit using inline in the beginning because of the cracks. I hated it too because the shades are the best and easiest I have ever seen. Especially the D shades. Dead on...

Rob, I use powder now. Can barely sand blast it off! I heard Ivoclar will be coming out with their own powder possibly this Fall.
 
J Rodrigo

J Rodrigo

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#11
The paste has composite binders that can cause issues like they are talking about. We constantly had cracks appear towards the end of the case. I would grind into the crack and it would have a small spot or two that would pop off clean. I started using powder(which I have always preferred) and never had a single issue after that. As a matter of fact, I quit using inline in the beginning because of the cracks. I hated it too because the shades are the best and easiest I have ever seen. Especially the D shades. Dead on...

Rob, I use powder now. Can barely sand blast it off! I heard Ivoclar will be coming out with their own powder possibly this Fall.
What brand of opaque powder you using? this opaque must have the same temperature, is not it? +- 940C° , I never suspected the opaque paste , and I still have my doubts about this.
 
NicelyMKV

NicelyMKV

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527 9
#12
I use VMK Master. Fires around 960 1st and 950 2nd. Took a crown straight out of the furnace and dropped it in water and still had to grind and sand blast to get Inline and the opaque off. I never suspected the opaque either until one of the guys at ivoclar mentioned the possibility to me. Don't get me wrong People use it everyday with great success but for whatever reason we just had issues with it.
 
NicelyMKV

NicelyMKV

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527 9
#13
I put inline on NP we cast, NP we have milled, High Pd, High Au pretty much anything available. I have had way too much ceramic thickness before etc and no issues after I changed the opaque. Fired it super wet, super dry the list goes on.

At 1st I wondered if it was contamination of the alloy but I was also using GC MC, Vita VM-13, Dsign and Vita VMK Master with zero issues. Dsign is a paste as well but we had no problems with it. I am no scientist but after making a change with the opaque the issues stopped IMMEDIATELY so thats all I can go by. The shades are still absolutely perfect. I would like to know if this alleviates anyone else's issues.
 
J Rodrigo

J Rodrigo

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123 1
#14
I put inline on NP we cast, NP we have milled, High Pd, High Au pretty much anything available. I have had way too much ceramic thickness before etc and no issues after I changed the opaque. Fired it super wet, super dry the list goes on.

At 1st I wondered if it was contamination of the alloy but I was also using GC MC, Vita VM-13, Dsign and Vita VMK Master with zero issues. Dsign is a paste as well but we had no problems with it. I am no scientist but after making a change with the opaque the issues stopped IMMEDIATELY so thats all I can go by. The shades are still absolutely perfect. I would like to know if this alleviates anyone else's issues.

Thanks for help Mr.! I hope that the cause of mysterious cracks are opaque, but I am Brazilian, and i can not understand some terms,such as "NP" "PD" "AU" ... would be the alloys? you work on implants too? because most cracks are frameworks implants or big frames, rehabilitation...
 
CatamountRob

CatamountRob

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5,383 165
#15
He is referring to alloys, NP is non precious, Pd is palladium and Au is gold. If you're issues are with implant and large bridge frameworks, that sounds to me more like a cooling issue, with a large mass of alloy I'd try a longer cooling time. Rob
 
J Rodrigo

J Rodrigo

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#16
He is referring to alloys, NP is non precious, Pd is palladium and Au is gold. If you're issues are with implant and large bridge frameworks, that sounds to me more like a cooling issue, with a large mass of alloy I'd try a longer cooling time. Rob
Thank's Rob, but was making slow cooling,20 minutes!12 minutes dry, but still cracks appeared in some cases, mainly implants. I don't believed the influence of opaque on cracks , but in bubble yes . Anyway I will try with the opaque powder .
 
lcmlabforum

lcmlabforum

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362 5
#17
Hope the moderator does not mind, but need some help here. My lab guy is
looking for some 1M1 and 1M2 Omega 900 dentine powder (see other thread in 'buy sell'). Anyone has experience mixing some other powder if he cannot get any since
Vita quit making these?
LCM
 
J Rodrigo

J Rodrigo

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123 1
#18
Hope the moderator does not mind, but need some help here. My lab guy is
looking for some 1M1 and 1M2 Omega 900 dentine powder (see other thread in 'buy sell'). Anyone has experience mixing some other powder if he cannot get any since
Vita quit making these?
LCM
I know a friend who makes mixes for porcelain for metal, But you should do tests and make an average temperature, try with vm13.
 
amadent

amadent

http://amadent.net/Home.p
Ratings
3 2
#20
here is my inline procedure- i never have any cracking or delaminateing issues ( any more)
sanblast metal to manufactures specs- clean in ultra sonic 5 minutes- degas metal-
( inline paste opaque)
run a 1st wash opaque ( very light) 950' centergrade , 1st opaque high temp 940'c, 2nd opaque 930'c
build up in-line with ips empress esthic veneer liquid with about 15% distilled water
found using straight liquid it got lifting and some steam tearing in porcelain
1st fire is
start temp 403'c
close time 4 min
heat rate 60' per min
high temp 910'c
hold time 1 min
open time 1 min
start vac 450'c
release vac 909'c
2nd fire is the same except high temp is down to 902'c
3rd bake if needed is down to 895'c high temp

Greg Amendola MDT
 
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