kyleyounggun

kyleyounggun

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Hello everyone,

Maybe someone can help me with this weekend headache. o_O

I'm in the process of consulting for a lab who is going to be switching dentures to milling and printing. They're asking me to update the cost of producing a few products, they want internal numbers to determine cost effectiviness. They have Ivoclar Programil SM7's for crown and bridge but currently do dentures Ivobase. They are fully ready to change production to 3D printing and Milled Dentures. They have sm3's and sm7's with more on the way.

I have the 3d printing variable costs for Labor and materials. I do not know the ballpark price they would charge for a 3D Printed Denture with printed teeth and card teeth.

And for milled dentures, I only know the labor involved, not the cost of pucks. Last time I knew, a PMMA puck was a little over a 100. I dont have exact prices. They're going to be using Ivotion monoblocks for specific shades and Card teeth (milled reduction) and/or DCL pmma blocks for the remaining dentures. All I can find right now is mass production milling centers doing Ivotion for 299. I would like to know what a normal production lab would charge for those. I feel 299 is far too cheap unless you have an abundance of volume.

If anyone is willing to help me with a list of what the going rate for those dentures, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks so much!



TLDR; I need the specific cost of DCL Cross-linked PMMA puck, ivotion monoblocks. and I would like to know how much to charge for dentures made from Ivotion (monoblock),milled teeth (glued),Card teeth (manual reduction). and going rate for 3D printed denture with printed teeth and card teeth
 
kyleyounggun

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I have an update for anyone else that needs this information as its valuable for anyone wanting to do a cost analysis for digital denture production.

Ivotion discs - 96.10
Ivo Denture Base - 47.10
Cross Linked DCL PMMA - 81.40

Generally, your highest premium denture you'd at 50-75 dollars for this process. You should see 375 to 450 per denture.

For 3D printing a denture retails generally about 250-350. However you need to factor in denture base material, tooth material, glue, and if you're going to coat it with DentaGUM or Dentax gum material. and you're able to use the denture base material to fuse the teeth and UV cure it to avoid using another SKU to make a digital denture.
 
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I have an update for anyone else that needs this information as its valuable for anyone wanting to do a cost analysis for digital denture production.

Ivotion discs - 96.10
Ivo Denture Base - 47.10
Cross Linked DCL PMMA - 81.40

Generally, your highest premium denture you'd at 50-75 dollars for this process. You should see 375 to 450 per denture.

For 3D printing a denture retails generally about 250-350. However you need to factor in denture base material, tooth material, glue, and if you're going to coat it with DentaGUM or Dentax gum material. and you're able to use the denture base material to fuse the teeth and UV cure it to avoid using another SKU to make a digital denture.
I have been looking into this for at least 3 years. Digital denture:
one you have to be able to accept STL file wether you have 3 shape you are good if not you pay $3000, unless your Dr has an open system . 15k for a good printer and you can never call it a premium denture. None of all the zoom webinars that I have asked dared to call it a premium denture better yet they call it interim, economical denture or an immediate denture. Sale price for that to a dentist MAX $150. Milled denture is another story but to mill it yourself you need a good milling machine with a very powerful spinal and high amps. 85k from Ivoclar. A denture puck is $100 another one for teeth I am not sure but let’s say $50. Compare that to a standard denture that can cost 25% of that much and no milling machine needed and yes you can charge if you are good at it $400. So if you can do standard denture without all these expenses you can make it if you have skills. Digital dentures so far can not be repaired or relined and milled dentures are too expensive. You will find people who say eventually if you do not accept digital you are a dinosaur. I agree but it is time for it yet in my opinion. We are still a good 5 years away to discover how to add fiber into the resin so you do not have to bond it to it and print teeth that are so monolithic and ugly, I would rather use a $3 card from anywhere even China.
Just my opinion.
 
bigj1972

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I have been looking into this for at least 3 years. Digital denture:
one you have to be able to accept STL file wether you have 3 shape you are good if not you pay $3000, unless your Dr has an open system . 15k for a good printer and you can never call it a premium denture. None of all the zoom webinars that I have asked dared to call it a premium denture better yet they call it interim, economical denture or an immediate denture. Sale price for that to a dentist MAX $150. Milled denture is another story but to mill it yourself you need a good milling machine with a very powerful spinal and high amps. 85k from Ivoclar. A denture puck is $100 another one for teeth I am not sure but let’s say $50. Compare that to a standard denture that can cost 25% of that much and no milling machine needed and yes you can charge if you are good at it $400. So if you can do standard denture without all these expenses you can make it if you have skills. Digital dentures so far can not be repaired or relined and milled dentures are too expensive. You will find people who say eventually if you do not accept digital you are a dinosaur. I agree but it is time for it yet in my opinion. We are still a good 5 years away to discover how to add fiber into the resin so you do not have to bond it to it and print teeth that are so monolithic and ugly, I would rather use a $3 card from anywhere even China.
Just my opinion.
Spot on.
 
kyleyounggun

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I have been looking into this for at least 3 years. Digital denture:
one you have to be able to accept STL file wether you have 3 shape you are good if not you pay $3000, unless your Dr has an open system . 15k for a good printer and you can never call it a premium denture. None of all the zoom webinars that I have asked dared to call it a premium denture better yet they call it interim, economical denture or an immediate denture. Sale price for that to a dentist MAX $150. Milled denture is another story but to mill it yourself you need a good milling machine with a very powerful spinal and high amps. 85k from Ivoclar. A denture puck is $100 another one for teeth I am not sure but let’s say $50. Compare that to a standard denture that can cost 25% of that much and no milling machine needed and yes you can charge if you are good at it $400. So if you can do standard denture without all these expenses you can make it if you have skills. Digital dentures so far can not be repaired or relined and milled dentures are too expensive. You will find people who say eventually if you do not accept digital you are a dinosaur. I agree but it is time for it yet in my opinion. We are still a good 5 years away to discover how to add fiber into the resin so you do not have to bond it to it and print teeth that are so monolithic and ugly, I would rather use a $3 card from anywhere even China.
Just my opinion.

I agree with you on a majority of things. I have 3shape and exocad(barely use it) already and blender for dental, i can access itero and cerec cases as well. The company whom I'm helping out is massive compared to my operation. They have 10 PM7's and many PM3's and they have 5 formlabs printers, 5 3dnext printers, and a few asigas. They have the cashflow to do whatever they want. They only do crown and bridge, the owner doesn't like the mess of traditional dentures and will only mill them or print them. And he's been outsourcing transition dentures only for transition to PFZ full zirconia arches. They charge 250 dollars for the denture now and I charge them 200 (my normal economy fee). I would be damned if I was to 3d print a denture and sell it less than I do when I wax it, invest it, boil it out, finish, polish. The prices I have above are directly from Ivoclar sales rep. The problem is that labor becomes 50-60 percent of your overhead when doing things traditionally as oppossed to 20-30 percent digital. If you were doing it by yourself, it would suck 80 hours a week (I did for 8 years). or paying 20-30 dollars and hour for 10 employees. As I dont print dentures myself now, but I can make 10 nightguards vs 2 in the same labor hours. With splint studio it takes about 10 minutes to make it, and 2 hours to print (i work on other things during that time). I can get 6 on my printer. I usually do two prints a day. I could print 10 or more if I stand them upright but they're so tight. I found 20-60 degrees is the best for fit, no grinding, just cleaning, removing supports, curing, and polishing. I digress.

I've been using 3d DLP printers for 3 years now and I've procesed denture on 3d printed model. I've had dentures completely bond to the models at first. I process hard night guards every day on a printer, I've added acrlyic to them and they've bonded each time, there's no line, no seperation, they grind and polish the same. All the resins I use are generally are methacrylate based. I've visited headquarters for a resign manufacturer for training, there was two ways you can bond to 3d printed dentures. I've repaired 3 of them in the past year, maybe? i've used regular acrylic, it partially bonds but leaves a line on the denture and looks funny. The denture needs to be cured at least 60C for 30-90 minutes to be fully cured. They say 30 minutes, but I've experienced issues on 3d printed parts that are not fully cured. I either use UV curing glue to bond surfaces together or its possible to use the denture base resin, partially cured to thicken it up to bond the tooth directly to the material. Now if we're talking bonding a tooth to valplast, just laugh.
 
TheLabGuy

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I do a fair share of digital dentures using the Ivotion. I prefer to use the monothilic disks but there is limitations...have to have the interoccclusal space. If not, you will have to mill the base/teeth seperately or go the traditional route. I'm still a 3Shape hater (currently ivotion can only be done with 3Shape) because it's so friggin buggy and the way they make you set things up is more time consuming than designing the damn thing. Which brings up a good point, you still have quite a bit of designing time in these...especailly to do it right. It isn't just a few clicks here and there and wahhh-lahhhh. I'd have to look but I bet i could do wax a denture wax try-in faster than i could design one. Granted, by the time you add in the processing time of the traditional the digital is definitely the way to go. In addition, I like ivotion because it's acrylic..can easily do a reline in the future as well. That's my take on them. I charge $400/arch. I charge more for traditional.
 
TheLabGuy

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ROFL
That's virtually every advertisement.
That's true, but I will give kudos to Ivoclar and there reps...they sent a few of them to us, spent a couple days with us training. Now why did I go with Ivotion?...basically because I wanted monolithic. I don't like dentures milled or printed I see advertised where you can clearly see the interface between tooth and pink and it just seems chincy to me how they are bonded. It's been a great selling point, heck even Ivoclar helped me get a great client because we had the technology on-site. Also, I have to admit, they are nice when you have the room. I jazz them up with a little optiglaze, takes 30 secs to do it but have been doing more and more. Now I have to add-on to add a PM7 mill...you think I can send Ivoclar the bill for the new addition...it's their fault...lol Lastly, I will mention the air issue...you can mill using the PM Dry, much cheaper mill than the PM7 but it's a air driven spindle and let me tell you...it uses the air. Therefore make sure you have a big boy air compressor. Ivoclar goes over all the requirements and makes sure everything is running and installed before they even come out. That was actually pretty nice. Hope this helps add to anyone on the fence of doing it. I know @Patrick Coon will be on here to give his opinion or answer questions as well. It's been frustrating, but fun, and I can see this area growing in the near future.
 
bigj1972

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That's true, but I will give kudos to Ivoclar and there reps...they sent a few of them to us, spent a couple days with us training. Now why did I go with Ivotion?...basically because I wanted monolithic. I don't like dentures milled or printed I see advertised where you can clearly see the interface between tooth and pink and it just seems chincy to me how they are bonded. It's been a great selling point, heck even Ivoclar helped me get a great client because we had the technology on-site. Also, I have to admit, they are nice when you have the room. I jazz them up with a little optiglaze, takes 30 secs to do it but have been doing more and more. Now I have to add-on to add a PM7 mill...you think I can send Ivoclar the bill for the new addition...it's their fault...lol Lastly, I will mention the air issue...you can mill using the PM Dry, much cheaper mill than the PM7 but it's a air driven spindle and let me tell you...it uses the air. Therefore make sure you have a big boy air compressor. Ivoclar goes over all the requirements and makes sure everything is running and installed before they even come out. That was actually pretty nice. Hope this helps add to anyone on the fence of doing it. I know @Patrick Coon will be on here to give his opinion or answer questions as well. It's been frustrating, but fun, and I can see this area growing in the near future.
Yeah over all the "systems", Ivoclar or bust.
 
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I am looking to get into the milling of digital dentures, would you recommend milling on a different unit other than the PM7? I started printing dentures a couple yrs ago and threw in the towel because of the overall quality and guilt of trying to sell them.
 
TheLabGuy

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I am looking to get into the milling of digital dentures, would you recommend milling on a different unit other than the PM7? I started printing dentures a couple yrs ago and threw in the towel because of the overall quality and guilt of trying to sell them.
You can use the PMDry...much cheaper milling unit but the spindle is air driven versus the PM7 which is electrically driven. You better have a big boy air compressor for that PMDry but Ivoclar will go through the specs when you call them. The milling is a thousand times better than the printed garbage we all see out there most of the time. Plus with ivotion, it's acrylic.
 
CoolHandLuke

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Versamill can do this quite well too. give axsys a call, ask to speak with Sales: 248-926-8810
 
Car 54

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Let alone the Dry Mill does not have an ionizer. It's mess after milling 4-6 units of PMMA, it would really be a mess after milling an Ivotion denture.
 
TheLabGuy

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Let alone the Dry Mill does not have an ionizer. It's mess after milling 4-6 units of PMMA, it would really be a mess after milling an Ivotion denture.
I agree, ours is a mess after it mills the ivotion, nothing a shop-vac suck job doesn't knock out it a couple minutes though.
 
TheLabGuy

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Versamill can do this quite well too. give axsys a call, ask to speak with Sales: 248-926-8810
I believe you can only mill ivotion with ivoclar mills. Yes, i know anything can be done, but unless they changed something it can only be done with ivoclar mills.
 
CoolHandLuke

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yeah true, but theres more than one way to skin a cat in this world. pink chinesium pucks and cheap acrylic single shade pucks gives you some room to make profit in dentures, if not quality..
 
bigj1972

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I agree, ours is a mess after it mills the ivotion, nothing a shop-vac suck job doesn't knock out it a couple minutes though.
What is the average time it takes to mill an Ivotion denture after you press start? Real world time, not the brochure.
 
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bigj1972

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PMDry 2 hours, PM7 1 hour
You know that's not bad. So at that point it's ready to polish, after cutting attachments?

Do you do any work to the intaglio surface (are there mill marks)?
 
TheLabGuy

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You know that's not bad. So at that point it's ready to polish, after cutting attachments?

Do you do any work to the intaglio surface (are there mill marks)?
Yep, once you cut the sprue leads it is ready polish...literally. I might take 30 secs after polishing them to jazz up the teeth/pink with some optiglaze but that's it. Also, the biggest comment I get across the board and something I would of never even thought of was...the patients say, "no sore spots and great retention". Literally I've done about fifty of them and that is the number one comment by far...crazy. The software is pretty neat in that it does equilibrate on working/balancing movements and removes the interferences digitally via a virtual articulator. I'm pretty particular when it comes to dentures and the quality...this ivotion system is by far the best i've seen/used out there. The only issue, is you have to be case specific, it doesn't work good for collapsed arches with very little vdo (because i'm using monolithic pucks) and the tooth color will be where the pink should be. When we see that, we kick them to traditional or design a two-piece (teeth separate than pink). Hope this helps.
 

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