FCZ coloring, liquid? or paste?

Jaemin Lee

Jaemin Lee

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I thought that I could settle down and relax about things around my in-clinic lab after all the gears have been set up.
However, now I am going through hard time than before.
I didn't know that getting nice FCZ would be hard like this.

First of all, I thought that shaded FCZ block could solve the coloring problems, but no, it didn't help anything.
After I ovened up my first FCZ with A2 shade guided block, the manufacturer of company is local so you wouldn't know, anyway, I was very surprised by the murky yellow color.
It was totally far from A2, it was just a little bit close to yellow than white, that was all.

I made a complaint about the color to the provider, but they said if you want to color your FCZ then you need to spread liquids on the white blocks. And they recommended me expensive new LAVA 98mm blocks!

My local dealer is providing LAVA plus liquid full set with LAVA plus 98mm blocks and they told me, with this you can make your FCZ more like Vita guide colors.
However they said, they don't have a manual for coloring with those liquid.
They said only by your experience you can achieve coloring of FCZ.
What a waste of time I felt while I was hearing it.

My DT said, he could stain sintered FCZ with Empress stain kit, but as he is new to FCZ world, I couldn't totally believe in what he said.

So I sat down in front of my computer again, I spent hours and hours searching informations about coloring FCZ from DLN.
After that, I could find many recommendations about GC lustre paste kit and Jensen Insync kit.
Fortunately, here in Korea, GC products are easy to buy, however in case of Jensen, I couldn't find local dealer.

Anyway, here is what I want to ask.

LAVA liquid is coloring FCZ before sintering, so if I can achieve colors only with liquids, maybe the work flow would be shorter than staining with paste. But I couldn't find anyone who's coloring their FCZs only with liquid here. If there's someone who is coloring FCZ only with liquids, please give me some advice on it.

Well, if there is no one who's coloring FCZ with liquids, I think I have to stain my white block after sintering with proper staining system. What do you guys think about matching GC lustre kit with LAVA plus white block?

And using shaded block would help coloring or not? From what I experienced it was quite terrible.

I am eagerly expecting some answers for this, please give me some words about coloring..
 
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CoolHandLuke

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you are about to experience a gigantic pain in your butt.

so much stuff can go wrong.

it is incredibly difficult to troubleshoot the process as an outsider, because everything (EVERYTHING!) matters. from the manufacturer of the oven, to the specific sintering variables, to the amount of liquid applied, to the thickness of the zirconia, to the modifiers applied.

if your zirconia provider gives no SPECIFIC instruction as to shading, you need to switch zirconia providers. do not stop and try to solve this on your own.

let me give you an example why troubleshooting this is a bad idea.

waaaaay long time ago i was head of cadcam at another lab and the owner directed us to use such a brand of zirconia and some shading liquid called Vita YZ.

anyway, the first one we made was very much the same result you experienced. quite yellow. not good colour, no translucency... big problem. so we made modifications - added water, raised temperature, less time spent with dipping, added modifiers with another shading liquid, drying under heat lamp, and many other things.

there was nothing we could do to make this work, so we stopped using this liquid and made big complaints to vita. we switched to the new zirkonzahn system, it was very new at this time and few people were using it. but it had something the vita never had - a very detailed explanation of how to paint the colour on the units, how to treat it before sintering, and how to modify it to our taste.

it was a gift from heaven. the very first crowns were perfect.

of course, afterward having modified it heavily, that was the end of my time as head of cadcam at that company - and that boss still texts me with chitchat monthly.

so no, don't waste a pile of zirconia and time and money trying to sort this out.

seek a system with a great degree of precision details about how to make it work. this will give you insight into the intricate delicate handling procedures that make great FCZ.
 
Jaemin Lee

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you are about to experience a gigantic pain in your butt.

so much stuff can go wrong.

it is incredibly difficult to troubleshoot the process as an outsider, because everything (EVERYTHING!) matters. from the manufacturer of the oven, to the specific sintering variables, to the amount of liquid applied, to the thickness of the zirconia, to the modifiers applied.

if your zirconia provider gives no SPECIFIC instruction as to shading, you need to switch zirconia providers. do not stop and try to solve this on your own.

let me give you an example why troubleshooting this is a bad idea.

waaaaay long time ago i was head of cadcam at another lab and the owner directed us to use such a brand of zirconia and some shading liquid called Vita YZ.

anyway, the first one we made was very much the same result you experienced. quite yellow. not good colour, no translucency... big problem. so we made modifications - added water, raised temperature, less time spent with dipping, added modifiers with another shading liquid, drying under heat lamp, and many other things.

there was nothing we could do to make this work, so we stopped using this liquid and made big complaints to vita. we switched to the new zirkonzahn system, it was very new at this time and few people were using it. but it had something the vita never had - a very detailed explanation of how to paint the colour on the units, how to treat it before sintering, and how to modify it to our taste.

it was a gift from heaven. the very first crowns were perfect.

of course, afterward having modified it heavily, that was the end of my time as head of cadcam at that company - and that boss still texts me with chitchat monthly.

so no, don't waste a pile of zirconia and time and money trying to sort this out.

seek a system with a great degree of precision details about how to make it work. this will give you insight into the intricate delicate handling procedures that make great FCZ.

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences.

This is hard to say but..
I did buy my Roland with 10k$ of deposit for zir materials prepaid.
I have no choice but to use LAVA plus I think.
 
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charles007

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Email Jensen to view their coloring videos on Lava and Imagine zirconia. Jensen is one of the great Sponsors on DLN.
Jensen put on a lot of free Webinars this year for anyone to watch on coloring Imagine zirconia and XT. I think they are gearing up for another training Webinar on coloring zirconia soon.
CadBane gave tips on several of his posts on coloring Jensen's Imagine !
Use "SEARCH" to find more posts on coloring Jensen's Imagine and Lava Plus
 
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Sevan P

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If you bought 10K worth of lava ZR then stick with whatever Jensen says works best, they already did all the hard work for you and you just need to nail the technique down, usuauly about a week of straight trying should do it. Like CHL said a giant PITA for you to figure it out yourself. We our self's use Talladium ZR and Zirkon Zahn Pretau acid based coloring liquids and have good success nailing colors. But it took us a few months to nail it perfectly.
 
Jaemin Lee

Jaemin Lee

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If you bought 10K worth of lava ZR then stick with whatever Jensen says works best, they already did all the hard work for you and you just need to nail the technique down, usuauly about a week of straight trying should do it. Like CHL said a giant PITA for you to figure it out yourself. We our self's use Talladium ZR and Zirkon Zahn Pretau acid based coloring liquids and have good success nailing colors. But it took us a few months to nail it perfectly.

I think I should find a way to get a support from Jensen then.
Until now, they don't look like to have a branch or an associated dealer here in Korea.
 
ts4341

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I have been coloring Zr for years, it is a skill learned by trial and error. I have hundreds of units laying around from all my efforts to achieve success. All Zr dealers will sell you their shirts and a line of coloring crap to get you in their system.. But you are right they really push the product before they know how to make it a success.
Hang in there. Coloring has so many variables to make it work.
I wish you luck. T
 
Sevan P

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I think I should find a way to get a support from Jensen then.
Until now, they don't look like to have a branch or an associated dealer here in Korea.

Oh damn, Korea. Yikes, then you best bet if you can't Jensen Support is on here. Where did you buy 10K worth of ZR from?
 
ts4341

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Better yet, why.? If you weren't familiar with the Zr and coloring
 
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grantoz

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Jaeminn Get your techo trained he will do it better and you can go home and have a beer.Why do you even want to do it ? To save a few bucks, you will never have enough time to do it properly and do your in mouth work well also.Its not something to just have a crack at because you will end up with cracks.
 
Jaemin Lee

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Oh damn, Korea. Yikes, then you best bet if you can't Jensen Support is on here. Where did you buy 10K worth of ZR from?
I bought it from 3m official reseller and they gave me 10k$ deposit for material as a discount for dwx 50.
I contacted them again today and they said there will be a training session for my DT regarding coloring very soon.
Maybe it'd do some help.
 
Jaemin Lee

Jaemin Lee

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Better yet, why.? If you weren't familiar with the Zr and coloring
Thanks for your words.
The company told me they would do their best to support us. And also they gave me a nice deal for mill machine and sinter furnace. So I chose to go with that company.
 
Jaemin Lee

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Jaeminn Get your techo trained he will do it better and you can go home and have a beer.Why do you even want to do it ? To save a few bucks, you will never have enough time to do it properly and do your in mouth work well also.Its not something to just have a crack at because you will end up with cracks.
That's exactly what I want to do. But my DT is only good at porcelain with Ivoclar system. So he tries to do everything including ZR coloring, with Ivoclar system. But as I know more from here, as for ZR, I dont think Ivoclar can be the best solution.
And Korean DT community doesnt look like having useful and up to date information like here. So I am searching for answers here by myself. Once I decide a coloring system, I would let my DT to get a seminar or lesson whatever with that system.
 
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grantoz

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jaemin you need to look harder as korea has some very good zirconia technicians they also have Zirkonzahn dealership and training and also many other zirconia systems and brands.If you employ them or send them your work they will have all the expertise you will need, why would they help you if you are taking work away from them?It is also a bit disrespectful to think that they dont know what they are doing. Get your techo to talk to them ,send him or her on courses that you will need to pay for or if that doesnt work get another techo.This is especially important at the moment a lot of the dental industry is trying to get rid of technicians because we are percieved as expensive and not skilled ,this is until we have to get the dentist out of trouble then things change a little.Im not trying to be rude to you but think what you are asking and you are not the 1st to try and do our job by asking a few questions on this website .Its like me going on to dentaltown and saying these dentist in my country dont know what they are doing so i will ask a few questions on dental town and do it myself how hard can it be.
 
Jaemin Lee

Jaemin Lee

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jaemin you need to look harder as korea has some very good zirconia technicians they also have Zirkonzahn dealership and training and also many other zirconia systems and brands.If you employ them or send them your work they will have all the expertise you will need, why would they help you if you are taking work away from them?It is also a bit disrespectful to think that they dont know what they are doing. Get your techo to talk to them ,send him or her on courses that you will need to pay for or if that doesnt work get another techo.This is especially important at the moment a lot of the dental industry is trying to get rid of technicians because we are percieved as expensive and not skilled ,this is until we have to get the dentist out of trouble then things change a little.Im not trying to be rude to you but think what you are asking and you are not the 1st to try and do our job by asking a few questions on this website .Its like me going on to dentaltown and saying these dentist in my country dont know what they are doing so i will ask a few questions on dental town and do it myself how hard can it be.

I fully understood what you meant, but I already asked my DT to find a good system to color 3m FCZ about a week ago and after that, one day he was making a call to Ivoclar and said he might color FCZ with Empress stain kit very well. So I asked him whether he tried to search other options than Empress or not first. And he said he couldnt find any other options. I asked again the reason why he wanted Empress. And he didn't have any special reason why he wanted to color FCZ with Empress.
I am not a superman and I cannot cover the DT's field and I don't want to. But at this moment I think I should find a good coloring system and let my DT to learn how to use the system. After I pick a proper coloring system then I really want to let my DT to learn it and do it by himslef.
Anyway your words completely make sense. I'm going to do my best to find a Korean FCZ coloring Jedi here.
Thank you for your words.
 
RileyS

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What sintering oven do you have? I had problems with one I bought were the crowns came out a hideous yellow chalk color. I'd fire the same crown from the same Zr disc and same liquids, remilled of course, in my old oven and they'd come out great. I never could get the new oven to work. You called your sintering oven company?
 
Jaemin Lee

Jaemin Lee

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What sintering oven do you have? I had problems with one I bought were the crowns came out a hideous yellow chalk color. I'd fire the same crown from the same Zr disc and same liquids, remilled of course, in my old oven and they'd come out great. I never could get the new oven to work. You called your sintering oven company?
It's from Mihm Vogt, ht-s speed model.
Now we have ovened up only a few FCZs, I think we cannot blame our oven at this moment...
 
rkm rdt

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Neither, just the stain and glaze monolithic FCZ. Argen Z esthetic zirconia.
 

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