Fast firing Ivoclar Emax Zir/Cad Multi

doug

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I'm looking for the firing parameters for the Emax Zir/Cad Multi zirconia fast cycle. I had an online conversation with Pat Coon from Ivoclar earlier last week and the program is hidden in the S-1 furnace that Ivoclar sells I have a perfectly good furnace, so I don't need theirs right now. It seems counter productive to sell a produce and then expect me to spend $11,000 or so to use it. I have the firing cycle numbers for a 9 hour program, but would prefer to use the 4.5 hour cycle. Anyone hove some numbers they want to share? I won't be buying any more of this if I can't get a faster firing cycle. Hey Ivoclar, what's the deal with proprietary firing cycles?!
 
Patrick Coon

Patrick Coon

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Hey Doug,

Thanks for the input. I get this question a lot. The official answer is that with the extreme variations in furnaces and combined with the critical control of temps and times with the ZirCAD Multi, the company is hesitant to advertise a shorter program in competitive furnaces (even with a Disclaimer on results obtained). Even with this in mind, I have passed your comments up the chain to see if we can change this.

I totally understand where you are coming from and personally think we would sell more of the product if a shorter program was available for competitive furnaces (even if customers had to do a little R&D on temperatures for optimum results).
 
doug

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Thanks, Pat. I hope we get some help.
 
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grantoz

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i hate the short firing mentality, people need to fire Zi long time as it gets the best results we turn stuff around in 2-3 regularly you mill it during the day sinter over night i just dont get the whole quick firing thing we have dont the short sinter thing they dont look as good and you get cracks from time to time. i think many times when you short sinter you dont see the problems untill a couple of years later and then people blame the zi not the muppet making the stuff. dont even start me on cerec 10 min cylcles.
 
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sirmorty

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I have had this happen. A doc sees that a company is advertising a fast sinter zirconia crown. Why do mine take 3 -5 days to get back?

I get the details on the material from the manufacturer, and indeed it can fast sinter but at the sacrifice of any type of aesthetics that a lab would be happy put their name on.

What's the bloody point? Oh that just for the Dr. to mill chairside and offer to his patients and charge the max amount that insurance will give back.

Ok, thanks for that material and the advertising behind it.
 
2thm8kr

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A doc sees that a company is advertising a fast sinter zirconia crown. Why do mine take 3 -5 days to get back?
Sir Morty replies, " because you don't pay for faster turn around times doctor." Lol
 
Patrick Coon

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i hate the short firing mentality, people need to fire Zi long time as it gets the best results we turn stuff around in 2-3 regularly you mill it during the day sinter over night i just dont get the whole quick firing thing we have dont the short sinter thing they dont look as good and you get cracks from time to time. i think many times when you short sinter you dont see the problems untill a couple of years later and then people blame the zi not the muppet making the stuff. dont even start me on cerec 10 min cylcles.

I won't say I always agree with it, but do understand where they are coming from. For a lot of labs, it's not about offering a shorter turn-around time, it's about being able to run more units thru the lab per day (without having to buy another furnace, due to space or money).

Also, there are differences between "Fast Sintering" and "Speed Sintering."

Most chairside milling doctors are wanting to do "Speed Sintering" in there offices. These programs are normally under an hour (sometimes as low as 15 minutes) and do give less esthetic results. Good for patients who want a same day turn-around, which is sometime important to them due to having to travel long distances for care and having to take time off from work. I have talked to patients who have to take whole day off to go to a dental appointment (due to locality). If these patients can get it done in one day it is much better for them, rather than having to take off another day for the insertion appointment. Very important for hourly wage workers, without much vacation or sick time. And who wants to take a vacation day for a dentist appointment. Vacation is for sitting on the beach drinking Margaritas!

"Fast Sintering" programs take a couple hours or more (2.5-4.5hr depending on material),and give very similar results to the longer programs with very little change to color or translucency that is perceivable to the human eye (usually). This allows the lab to run more units per day without an extra outlay of money for another furnace.

And truth be told, we actually find the strength numbers to be slightly higher on the "Fast Sintering" programs. Not really anything statistically significant, but still slightly higher.
 
Car 54

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I won't say I always agree with it, but do understand where they are coming from. For a lot of labs, it's not about offering a shorter turn-around time, it's about being able to run more units thru the lab per day (without having to buy another furnace, due to space or money).


"Fast Sintering" programs take a couple hours or more (2.5-4.5hr depending on material),and give very similar results to the longer programs with very little change to color or translucency that is perceivable to the human eye (usually). This allows the lab to run more units per day without an extra outlay of money for another furnace.

And truth be told, we actually find the strength numbers to be slightly higher on the "Fast Sintering" programs. Not really anything statistically significant, but still slightly higher.

Bingo, exactly how some of those programs help me out. Being able to run 2 cycles in a day when I need to.
 
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grantoz

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so patrick ,ivoclar should either make it easy to fast sinter rather than the secret programs that you need to find out on a thread like this if there is no problem fast firing.whats the point of having to stuff around if you guys are ok with it.
 
Patrick Coon

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so patrick ,ivoclar should either make it easy to fast sinter rather than the secret programs that you need to find out on a thread like this if there is no problem fast firing.whats the point of having to stuff around if you guys are ok with it.

With our furnace it's in there. But we know precisely how it fires. With competitive furnaces there is a wide variation so they are hesitant, but I am trying to change that. If they do release one, it will be in the Instructions for Use, and not just on the back pages of this super secret forum. :)
 
Contraluz

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I won't say I always agree with it, but do understand where they are coming from. For a lot of labs, it's not about offering a shorter turn-around time, it's about being able to run more units thru the lab per day (without having to buy another furnace, due to space or money).

Also, there are differences between "Fast Sintering" and "Speed Sintering."

Most chairside milling doctors are wanting to do "Speed Sintering" in there offices. These programs are normally under an hour (sometimes as low as 15 minutes) and do give less esthetic results. Good for patients who want a same day turn-around, which is sometime important to them due to having to travel long distances for care and having to take time off from work. I have talked to patients who have to take whole day off to go to a dental appointment (due to locality). If these patients can get it done in one day it is much better for them, rather than having to take off another day for the insertion appointment. Very important for hourly wage workers, without much vacation or sick time. And who wants to take a vacation day for a dentist appointment. Vacation is for sitting on the beach drinking Margaritas!

"Fast Sintering" programs take a couple hours or more (2.5-4.5hr depending on material),and give very similar results to the longer programs with very little change to color or translucency that is perceivable to the human eye (usually). This allows the lab to run more units per day without an extra outlay of money for another furnace.

And truth be told, we actually find the strength numbers to be slightly higher on the "Fast Sintering" programs. Not really anything statistically significant, but still slightly higher.
Great response and info, Pat!
 
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Great response and info, Pat!
Hi iget New s1 few days ago try to sinter fast cycle 75 min. With several brands everything is coming out White like under bake 0 translucency itry to increase temp 30 degree celcius. Nothing the same . It shoud be ithink the holding time.
 
Car 54

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Hi iget New s1 few days ago try to sinter fast cycle 75 min. With several brands everything is coming out White like under bake 0 translucency itry to increase temp 30 degree celcius. Nothing the same . It shoud be ithink the holding time.

If you're using the S1 pre-programmed firing cycles, those are for the Ivoclar line of zirconia. Any other manufactures zirconia most likely won't come out the same, as you may have found out. Otherwise, my shortest time with the custom settings with other manufactures zirconia (Beyond) is about 5:40. I could have it set for 4:15, but I wanted a better result without going to an ~8 hour program for singles.

I think a longer hold time would be more effective than continuing to raise the high temp.
 
Patrick Coon

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Hi iget New s1 few days ago try to sinter fast cycle 75 min. With several brands everything is coming out White like under bake 0 translucency itry to increase temp 30 degree celcius. Nothing the same . It shoud be ithink the holding time.

AS Car54 says, those are for Ivoclar materials only, and the 75 min program is specifically for single unit crown substructures, NOT FULL CONTOUR (not yelling, just emphasizing). I would recommend inputing and using a specific program from your zirconia manufacturer. This will give you the best results.
 
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Hey Doug,

Thanks for the input. I get this question a lot. The official answer is that with the extreme variations in furnaces and combined with the critical control of temps and times with the ZirCAD Multi, the company is hesitant to advertise a shorter program in competitive furnaces (even with a Disclaimer on results obtained). Even with this in mind, I have passed your comments up the chain to see if we can change this.

I totally understand where you are coming from and personally think we would sell more of the product if a shorter program was available for competitive furnaces (even if customers had to do a little R&D on temperatures for optimum results).
I have been an Ivoclar lab for the last 15years, I had the same issue with their e-max press ovens. I got the parameters and it works on any press oven. I my opinion it is all BS just to sell an oven. Not a good policy.
 
doug

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Thanks, Pat! We'll try it on a single unit and compare to a single at the long cycle.
 
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