Etching a maryland bridge

[ChrisR]

I was wondering if I could get a refresher on etching a maryland bridge. I have not done this for about 10 years now and had a local doc that called with the request. I ordered the Etch-It kit from american dental supply and if I remember right You cover the porcelain and polished side with wax then just etch ?

 

[CatamountRob]

The acids are in gel form and pretty much stay where you put them, so there is usually no need to cover anything. Are you using a non-precious alloy with berillium? As I recall that is about the only stuff you can etch unless you want to tin plate. Rob

 

[ChrisR]

Thanks for the response rob. Its a guess but for some reason Tilite is sticking in my head as what he said it was. I may be wrong on that though. I also am wondering how to charge for this considering that I didnt make the bridge. I am in the process of thrying to form a relationship with the doc. As of now I am only doing his anterior and more complex cases but would like to get some of his single unit work also..

 

[CatamountRob]

Chris,
If it were me, I would probably do it for free in hopes of getting more work. Other than having to buy the etching gel there isn't much to it. Personaly I wouldn't do it unless the doc agreed to hold me harmless if it fails. If you believe the alloy is Tilite, you might want to find out what it contains before you try to etch it. Rob

 

[SiKBOY]

Thanks for the response rob. Its a guess but for some reason Tilite is sticking in my head as what he said it was. I may be wrong on that though. I also am wondering how to charge for this considering that I didnt make the bridge. I am in the process of thrying to form a relationship with the doc. As of now I am only doing his anterior and more complex cases but would like to get some of his single unit work also..

Don't you hate that? Dentist that only send you "Bitch" cases and send the easy stuff to a cheaper lab.

I haven't heard of anybody etching metal for maryland bridges before. I have had 3 maryland bridges in my mouth on my lower ants.

The first was a double winged zirco job that failed and then a single wing that failed and now I have a non precious double wing with holes drilled though the wings that are countersunk. Its lasted me more than 10 years now with no etching.

 

[sixonice]

Thanks for the response rob. Its a guess but for some reason Tilite is sticking in my head as what he said it was. I may be wrong on that though. I also am wondering how to charge for this considering that I didnt make the bridge. I am in the process of thrying to form a relationship with the doc. As of now I am only doing his anterior and more complex cases but would like to get some of his single unit work also..

Chris - if it is Tilite NP alloy, that isn't going to etch for you. I believe all of their alloys (they have 4 different kinds of Tilite) are Nickel-Chrome based in varying percentages. Beryllium is what makes NP alloy etch, so without it the etch gel will not help you. As another member stated before, you would have to tin plate it first, then etch it.

 

[DDDental]

Tell him you can only sandblast it with 60 micro Al2O3 and that's it.

 

[ChrisR]

Don't you hate that? Dentist that only send you "Bitch" cases and send the easy stuff to a cheaper lab.

I haven't heard of anybody etching metal for maryland bridges before. I have had 3 maryland bridges in my mouth on my lower ants.

The first was a double winged zirco job that failed and then a single wing that failed and now I have a non precious double wing with holes drilled though the wings that are countersunk. Its lasted me more than 10 years now with no etching.

No actually I find to be a compliment. If it were the other way around I think I would be more disappointed. I look at it as being a dentist is a business just like runninga lab is a business. When I order supplies I always look for the best quality for the price and vice versa so I dont hold it against the doctors for doing the same. As for the "bitch cases" I would think the easy stuff would classify more in that area than anterior/large case work. I want to become the best technician I can possibly be, and to have the docs send cases like like really tests my determination.

Or maybe I should just save myself the headache and potential problems and tell him to send it back to where he originally got it from....
The ADS etch says that it will effectivly etch all NP, semi-precious and high noble alloys. So I guess we will see if it works or not. As for the tin plating does that have to be re plated everytime it is etched or is it a one time thing with re etches possible ?

 

[SiKBOY]

No actually I find to be a compliment. If it were the other way around I think I would be more disappointed. I look at it as being a dentist is a business just like runninga lab is a business. When I order supplies I always look for the best quality for the price and vice versa so I dont hold it against the doctors for doing the same. As for the "bitch cases" I would think the easy stuff would classify more in that area than anterior/large case work. I want to become the best technician I can possibly be, and to have the docs send cases like like really tests my determination.

I can understand what your talking about and sometimes I do think about it like that but sometimes I think about it like this too. I'm spending twice as long on the difficult cases for the same amount of money that im charging out for a simple single unit that takes half as long. The economics just isn't there.

What starts to frustrate me more is that I know that the some other techo is slapping the porc on blind folded with less stress, gets to go home earlier spend more time with the kids/family and makes more money per hr than I do.

Now if the dentists sent all the cases to you, the hard ones and the easy ones, that would be ideal as there is also some kind of loyalty there as well.

 

[ChrisR]

Tell him you can only sandblast it with 60 micro Al2O3 and that's it.

Rob,
You mean instead of etching just blast it n send back ? I guess if the etch doesnt work that is the only other option I have. Thanks for the help and I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow.

Six,
I am assuming that tiltite is the metal they used for the bridge but not 100% on it. Hopefully it isnt and the etch works but like you said the cobalt will most likely not etch. Just cross the fingers and toes and give 'er a go.

 

[CatamountRob]

I would not think that sandblasting it would increase the bond strength by much. If you can't etch it, the other option is putting holes in the wings (with say a 1/4 rd. bur),the cement fills the holes and they seem to hold. Of course you would want to clear that with the doc. first. I have doctors that order them that way.

 

[ChrisR]

I can understand what your talking about and sometimes I do think about it like that but sometimes I think about it like this too. I'm spending twice as long on the difficult cases for the same amount of money that im charging out for a simple single unit that takes half as long. The economics just isn't there.

What starts to frustrate me more is that I know that the some other techo is slapping the porc on blind folded with less stress, gets to go home earlier spend more time with the kids/family and makes more money per hr than I do.

Now if the dentists sent all the cases to you, the hard ones and the easy ones, that would be ideal as there is also some kind of loyalty there as well.

Oh yeah I know exactly what you mean about everything your saying. If you you add up a single unit vs. multiple units the profit isnt close. I completely understand your thinking and by doing him this favor I am hoping to get some loyalty back from him.
I would love to be home alot earlier everyday and make more money with less stress. But here I am tonight 7p.m. on Sunday just finishing here in the lab and starting back up at 7 a.m. tomorrow....... I would be lying if I said I didnt mind working til 7 or 8 everynight but I truly love doing what I do and all the challenges that come with really push me to be better everyday.

And I know that part of the reason he does not send his single units to me is because I priced about $45 bucks higher than most other labs in the area. I am very firm with my pricing and do not do different rates for different docs. They all get the same quality of crown at the same price. To me that seems like a fair way to do it. What I dont want is one of my accounts talking to another account and saying yeah he does nice work and his crowns are only X dollars while the other guy is paying $45 more for the same thing. That scares me thinking I could lose 2 guys that easy.
So when he sends his larger cases he knows he is paying more but he also knows what to expect for that extra money in comparison.


And I'm guess theat the maryland bridge that you have is bonded in place. Would it be somewhat along the lines of this ?

The DAL Monodont® Bridge

But instead of the tabs you have holes drilled thru your wings ?

 

[ChrisR]

I would not think that sandblasting it would increase the bond strength by much. If you can't etch it, the other option is putting holes in the wings (with say a 1/4 rd. bur),the cement fills the holes and they seem to hold. Of course you would want to clear that with the doc. first. I have doctors that order them that way.

I was thinking do something like that if he would ok it. But also thinking about telling him if it comes loose again that we should make him a new one out of e.max and bond that bad boy in place. Then you have no worries for a long time..

And by the way It doesnt sound like fun drilling holes thru some NP wings.
Do I have any volunteers ???

 

[CatamountRob]

Nope, it's not fun. When I make them with holes, I use either noble or high noble metal, it's way easier to put holes in than n.p. Making a new one with an etchable alloy is no problem either. We used to use Litecast B or Rexillium III. Litecast B is no longer available but Rex is, as well as some others. I'm not sure about e.Max, I dont know if Maryland bridges are an approved indication, but I suspect they are not. Rob

 

[SiKBOY]

And I'm guess theat the maryland bridge that you have is bonded in place. Would it be somewhat along the lines of this ?

The DAL Monodont® Bridge

But instead of the tabs you have holes drilled thru your wings ?

I have the full lingual surface covered by the wing, not just the tab. I have one large hole drilled through each wing that is countersunk into the metal.

I can't remember if it is bonded or cemented but I think it is cemented.
I'll take a picture of it and post it up on here. I sandblast all my pfm crowns on the fitting surface before issuing.

 

[SiKBOY]

And I know that part of the reason he does not send his single units to me is because I priced about $45 bucks higher than most other labs in the area. I am very firm with my pricing and do not do different rates for different docs. They all get the same quality of crown at the same price. To me that seems like a fair way to do it. What I dont want is one of my accounts talking to another account and saying yeah he does nice work and his crowns are only X dollars while the other guy is paying $45 more for the same thing. That scares me thinking I could lose 2 guys that easy.
So when he sends his larger cases he knows he is paying more but he also knows what to expect for that extra money in comparison.

Its good to hear that you have aimed your work towards the upper end market of dental prosthetics and are not just pumping out production work.

My ultimate goal is to have 2 or 3 good consistant clients, and to be comfortable with my own living. To have Dentists that have half a clue on what goes on in the dental world and won't break my balls because the "distal lingual, marginal ridge on a lower 6, needs a little more of a blue tinge to refract the fluorescent light in his office to his liking"

I would hate to have clients that would try and break your nuts by asking for discounts of 5 or 10 bucks off a crown. Those are the kinds of clients that I would want to stay away from because all they are after is price and not quality.

 

[ChrisR]

I must have been wrong, the bridge seemed to etch so i'm guessing it wasnt tilite. The ADS etch etches all metals except cromium cobalt. I appreciated all the help and quick response.
Rob and Six,
You had me awake all night with cold sweats thinking that the bridge wouldnt etch and I was going to have to poke holes thru those wings. THats the stuff nighmares are made of...........

Sik,
I am very lucky to have been able to find guys that really care about what is going into patients mouths. They properly plan and execute treatments which makes my end very enjoyable for the most part (even those damn long hours).

I am very obsessive about everything that I do here at the lab from the way the impressions are trimmed to how the crowns are placed in the cases for delivery. It has helped me alot and it has also made for many longer days that probably should of been over. From my point of view showing my docs that I care about what I do and am willing to learn things with them has formed some great relationships so far..
A guy once told me When your dead nobody will remember how much money you made or left behind, but they will remember the legacy you left on them and others. I think of that everyday

 

[ChrisR]

I would hate to have clients that would try and break your nuts by asking for discounts of 5 or 10 bucks off a crown. Those are the kinds of clients that I would want to stay away from because all they are after is price and not quality.[/QUOTE]

What I did with a client that was doing that I told him that if he gave me a try I would make his first one at that price but there on after the price would be the usual. I did the first one and sent it to him he called and said "perfect fit no adjustments at all" so I thoiught great getting more work. No calls for pick-ups for a couple months, then outta nowere he called and said I'm tired of adjusting crowns and time is money so how much did you say your crowns cost ? The rest is history

 

[kcdt]

I have the full lingual surface covered by the wing, not just the tab. I have one large hole drilled through each wing that is countersunk into the metal.

I can't remember if it is bonded or cemented but I think it is cemented.
I'll take a picture of it and post it up on here. I sandblast all my pfm crowns on the fitting surface before issuing.

It HAS to bonded, that's what they are. If it were cement, it would have washed out and delaminated, its just that the bonding agent needs a mechanical interlock, capish?
Have you tried rocatech?

 

[SiKBOY]

I am very lucky to have been able to find guys that really care about what is going into patients mouths. They properly plan and execute treatments which makes my end very enjoyable for the most part (even those damn long hours).

I am very obsessive about everything that I do here at the lab from the way the impressions are trimmed to how the crowns are placed in the cases for delivery. It has helped me alot and it has also made for many longer days that probably should of been over. From my point of view showing my docs that I care about what I do and am willing to learn things with them has formed some great relationships so far..
A guy once told me When your dead nobody will remember how much money you made or left behind, but they will remember the legacy you left on them and others. I think of that everyday

I have the same personality as you do. I think thats why I can only work for myself and by myself. If I were to employ someone, it would have to be an apprentice that doesn't have any prior experience. That way you can train them the way that you want things to be done and your starting with a clean slate.

I have a saying that always sticks with me when I'm doing my work.

"Only as good as your last"

It just reminds me to keep my quality up and not to slack off or cut corners.