Economy Dentures

[sidesh0wb0b]

Get a Carbon then. That sticker price will shock you though

or a stratasys

 

[evanosu]

or a stratasys

There's a lunch and learn actually tomorrow here near our lab by Stratasys, so we'll see what they have to say. What you think about SprintRay?

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

There's a lunch and learn actually tomorrow here near our lab by Stratasys, so we'll see what they have to say. What you think about SprintRay?

i would put stratasys up there with carbon, big price but superior results. i personally would prefer stratasys over carbon but everyone should make up their own minds.
i dont want to thrash sprintray, but i was unhappy enough that i got rid of all my sprintray equipment a year ago.

 

[evanosu]

i would put stratasys up there with carbon, big price but superior results. i personally would prefer stratasys over carbon but everyone should make up their own minds.
i dont want to thrash sprintray, but i was unhappy enough that i got rid of all my sprintray equipment a year ago.

Ok great

 

[tuyere]

I think Stratsys' polyjet approach to printing is a technological dead-end for most printing purposes- and has no cross-compatibility with any other printing systems or their materials as a result- and I haven't been shy about expressing that in the past, but I hadn't actually seen things costed out until recently- we decided to retire our last Stratasys earlier this month after we did the math and found that our per-unit costs were almost double on the stratasys vs. the carbon. And you don't pay for maintenance or repair with a rented Carbon like you do with the stratasys to boot. We had some special deal cut where we were getting replacement parts and resin at a substantial discount, like 40-50% iirc, but that deal expired and the math just doesn't make sense for us any more. Didn't make sense before that deal expired, it turns out, but that was the push that got us to move on.
Polyjet printing has some neat tricks up its sleeve that you can't do with other techniques, multi-material printing being the main one, but... yeah, just some things to bear in mind.

 

[bigj1972]

If dentists sell Cerac crowns, are they charging economy fees? If they are in office 3D printing the "new excepted insurance code" crowns, are they economy?

If demand becomes so great for "economy" appliances, didn't we just get a pay cut for producing more for less?


We know they think fast and cheap is good for their business. Is it good for us?

 

[Affinity]

The Drs concern is their patient, not their vendors, when supply of vendors is limited, or limited to 'economy' , they do it themselves. Every dollar for a lab starts and ends with a dentist choosing to send it to us, and they dont have to send to us anymore than I have to outsource my zirconia etc. In other words, its not profitable for me to pay $40 for one crown, when I can buy a whole puck for $100.. and the Drs have figured out the same.

 

[JonnyLathe]

Rodin Denture Base 2.0 and Rodin Titan resin would be a good option IMO. Strong and aesthetic. I would get a printer with a big build plate at that volume so you can print in bulk. For economy I would do 2 piece dentures, one piece with composite gingival build up is a lot more labor intensive and expensive.

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

There's a lunch and learn actually tomorrow here near our lab by Stratasys, so we'll see what they have to say. What you think about SprintRay?

Did you end up attending the lunch and learn by stratasys? i would be interested in hearing your take on their machines.

 

[evanosu]

Did you end up attending the lunch and learn by stratasys? i would be interested in hearing your take on their machines.

I did but unfortunately it was not really focused on dental at all. It was more for other manufacturing. They had some denture samples that actually did look pretty solid. I'm just not sold on the process yet. I haven't really looked at the cost between printing monolithic and then 'painting' on the tissue shade versus printing the base and teeth separate and then fusing the teeth together. Not sure the labor differences etc, We were looking at printing for a specific economy line but the math doesn't work out and we just don't do enough 'higher' end dentures to invest right now in the printers. Everyone does seem to say that Carbon is far away the best right now but unless you're charging $400+/arch, it's just not cost effective. We'll probably look into this again in the fall as it's only a matter of time.

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

I did but unfortunately it was not really focused on dental at all. It was more for other manufacturing. They had some denture samples that actually did look pretty solid. I'm just not sold on the process yet. I haven't really looked at the cost between printing monolithic and then 'painting' on the tissue shade versus printing the base and teeth separate and then fusing the teeth together. Not sure the labor differences etc, We were looking at printing for a specific economy line but the math doesn't work out and we just don't do enough 'higher' end dentures to invest right now in the printers. Everyone does seem to say that Carbon is far away the best right now but unless you're charging $400+/arch, it's just not cost effective. We'll probably look into this again in the fall as it's only a matter of time.

well thats too bad.
the real comparisons are as you noted. carbon vs j5 and which makes workflow easier and the most cost effective.

 

[FASTFNGR]

Some discussion in our lab on economy dentures. We made an emergency denture because the dr. admittedly screwed up and we bailed him out. We printed a monolithic denture and put pink composite on the gingival(not our normal economy denture technique) and he and the patient were thrilled that we could get them something acceptable to them so fast. My removable lead thought there could be a sizable market for a "super economy denture" like this. Is anyone doing something like this for their economy dentures? What are you all doing for your economy dentures? All our premium dentures are Ivotion milled and economy are lucitone print. Thanks

I do cold cure for economy denture with a cost of $10 in material and 2 hrs of work. No printers no pink composit . Pure profit.
PS: we use microwave for our heat cured dentures. 2 minutes in the microwave to wash the wax and 3 minutes to cure. Cost: $20 max. Pure profit and no miss print dentures and no bonding. Printing denture is a pure hype.

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

I do cold cure for economy denture with a cost of $10 in material and 2 hrs of work. No printers no pink composit . Pure profit.
PS: we use microwave for our heat cured dentures. 2 minutes in the microwave to wash the wax and 3 minutes to cure. Cost: $20 max. Pure profit and no miss print dentures and no bonding. Printing denture is a pure hype.

material costs are the inexpensive side

the benefit of the stratasys j5 is printing and no bonding. its all printed as one. washed with water, no monomer, no IPA. you may not see benefit for your workflow, but the technology is growing because the vast majority of others see the benefit. otherwise, everyone would be making el cheapo nuked dentures and charging $40 for 100% profit

 

[FASTFNGR]

material costs are the inexpensive side

the benefit of the stratasys j5 is printing and no bonding. its all printed as one. washed with water, no monomer, no IPA. you may not see benefit for your workflow, but the technology is growing because the vast majority of others see the benefit. otherwise, everyone would be making el cheapo nuked dentures and charging $40 for 100% profit

No one is against new technology but the last couple of years one of the one piece color printers was $110k . It will be a while before that kind of price is affordable. Not too many people are going to buy it. Till that time regular printing dentures in 2 pieces and bond them is a joke quality wise and price wise when you have something that is a a simple as microwaveable acrylic that not a lot of people got into it because the flasks are $350 a piece I do not see that kind of printer price is going anywhere.

 

[Flipperlady]

I do cold cure for economy denture with a cost of $10 in material and 2 hrs of work. No printers no pink composit . Pure profit.
PS: we use microwave for our heat cured dentures. 2 minutes in the microwave to wash the wax and 3 minutes to cure. Cost: $20 max. Pure profit and no miss print dentures and no bonding. Printing denture is a pure hype.

I look at it this way, the quality of your dentures is our calling card and we aren't just making art we are making something that betters peoples lives. Poor or rich , every person deserves our best which is why most of us say that printed dentures aren't ready for most uses yet...I would say one step below that would be a cold cured denture

 

[Doris A]

I look at it this way, the quality of your dentures is our calling card and we aren't just making art we are making something that betters peoples lives. Poor or rich , every person deserves our best which is why most of us say that printed dentures aren't ready for most uses yet...I would say one step below that would be a cold cured denture

I agree. The only thing that we cold cure is repairs. If we have a rush flipper, we’ll microwave it. All other appliances are either Success or Ivocap injected. All relines are ivocap.

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

No one is against new technology but the last couple of years one of the one piece color printers was $110k . It will be a while before that kind of price is affordable. Not too many people are going to buy it. Till that time regular printing dentures in 2 pieces and bond them is a joke quality wise and price wise when you have something that is a a simple as microwaveable acrylic that not a lot of people got into it because the flasks are $350 a piece I do not see that kind of printer price is going anywhere.

i do agree that the $110k price tag is steep, very steep.
that said, it has already come down from that price point significantly. maybe not enough for me or most people haha but there are folks buying them! with that in mind, a printer of that caliber has the potential to free up more labor hours than the cost. you keep bringing up material costs, and sure el cheapo microwave acrylics are inexpensive....time is the thing that is the most expensive.

we have had the capability to make 2 piece dentures in the lab for many years now, and we do not. i agree that its not great. printing dentures isn't hype at all. its a sizable portion of the market place, like it or not. maybe not your local market, but as a whole it isn't going away. i tend to (still) believe that additive manufacturing is the future and one day will overtake most other options. it just makes more sense....though not cents right now lol

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

I look at it this way, the quality of your dentures is our calling card and we aren't just making art we are making something that betters peoples lives. Poor or rich , every person deserves our best which is why most of us say that printed dentures aren't ready for most uses yet...I would say one step below that would be a cold cured denture

at least for many or most folks here, i would wholly agree. being proud and confident in putting your stamp on the end product is important to us....which is why we have yet to make printed dentures a part of our day to day product lineup.