E-Max cad cost vs Pressing cost

[charles007]

As new LD blocks are released, there will also be cheaper ingots coming out, and I bet my last dollar the ingots will come out long before any blocks are released.
Jim, I do hope LD pucks will come out, but I'm not holding my breath for that. It wouldn't surprise me if a newer material comes out in puck form before any LD pucks are released, if ever. Should LD pucks come out, this could be a game changer..

Designing on a scanner and milling or printing wax patterns to press will always be the cheapest form of using LD. I don't for see any company selling LD pucks cheaper/per unit cost, than the cost in ingot form to press. Plus the extra inventory cost of LD pucks, all the shades, LT,HT, ect would be to high, even for larger labs to stock, much less smaller labs. Hope I'm wrong in my so called vision of LD puck costs.
My crystal ball shows/hopes/ as more and more labs close their doors, older techs die off and retire, prices will level off from the shortage of labs...The race to the bottom in prices is no different than other industries, so consistency, good relationships, business skills etc etc , will be the difference in staying in business and failing.

The 1-2 man show lab will need the high tech toys to save on labor and accept the high cost of equipment and materials to achieve higher production levels to stay in business. I for one priced my cad/cam restorations to low and seeing less profit.. Other labs doing the same at even lower prices will surely fail and end up closing their doors. I'm not worried about low lab prices at this point.
Sorry to drift off topic ! .
I see milling LD as a very viable alternative once prices of blocks drop for smaller labs, and I don't see this as a good idea for larger labs. My prospective on milling vs pressing comes down to the amount of hands in your lab and what equipment you already have. If a lab already has a pressing oven and 4 to 6 anteriors ready to wax or design, pressing it the way to go. If you have 4 to 6 posteriors and mostly different shades, why not mill. I see the use of milling and pressing as being the new generation lab to meet or exceed the demand of our accounts. We must be able to meet the demands of doctors interring the digital world, and also to keep more of our accounts into leaping into buying a cerec or e4d by offering faster turnaround times. Owning a mill is the only way I see we as the smaller lab can stay in business and compete with the big box labs..Makes no difference if you press or mill, its the skill, talent and business savvy that separates us from the big box labs.

 

[BobCDT]

I'm getting $240, delivered. Docs in my town are $225.
No pick ups, No models, no dies, no scanning.
Simply design, do CAM, mill, thin margin, refine anatomy and stain, glaze and sinter all in one bake. By far the most profitable monolithic posterior crown we make even though our costs are higher on materials and the delivery.
In reality, a monolithic e.max delivered in one hour is really not the same product as one delivered in a week or two.
Cost looks like this:
Block $32
Tools. $3.50
Labor (15 minutes) $7
Misc. $2
Delivery. $20 (on average)
Total. $64.50

 

[BobCDT]

Charles, I believe the patent on LD has run out. If so, I am expecting to see blocks in the sub $20 price range. I have no idea what the cost is. Currently there are a lot of hands in the cookie jar. Ivoclar Europe, then Ivoclar US and Patterson are all making a profit. If I were to guess the cost of manufacturing LD I would say $4-5 a block.
No question, we will be seeing LD ingots and blocks at more competitive prices from others in the not to distant future.
I think Zubler may have an ingot coming very soon.

 

[BobCDT]

Anyone up one the difference between LD and Glidewell's new Lithium Silicate? Is this the same as LD?

 

[BobCDT]

Makes no difference if you press or mill, its the skill, talent and business savvy that separates us from the big box labs.

The big box labs have the business savvy. That's how they they became big? In general the small labs need more of this and perhaps a little less focus on the 27 powders they put into a molar.

 

[BobCDT]

Sorry gang, I feel like I've taken over the thread.

 

[Tayebdental]

Bob, keep on writing we love to hear from you.

 

[cadfan]

The question is, is their any other way than the digital in the future ??? if you have time you can make it all per hand or mill it in wax and do the other parts by hand ,if you have a lot work the engine could work for you all night long.The fix cost off the engine is always the same and they do more than e.max.You can duplikate the situation in the software and mill it ,or try in constructed forms in pmma to check everything an use it for definite restoration . digital way gives you lots off options more than a ceramik ofen.If you want to play musik in a small lab nothing good is it to have only 3 black and 3 white keys of a piano.The

 

[jthacke3]

Anyone up one the difference between LD and Glidewell's new Lithium Silicate? Is this the same as LD?

My understanding is that Glidewell's Obsidian is essentially the same product as the expired patent for Ivoclar's original Empress II product that was only ever used as a substructure. The patents on e.max Lithium Disilicate are current and iron-clad.

JIm

 

[jthacke3]

The big box labs have the business savvy. That's how they they became big? In general the small labs need more of this and perhaps a little less focus on the 27 powders they put into a molar.

Some technicians are in the business of making teeth, others are in business to make money. Precious few figure out a way to successfully do both.

Jim Thacker
Utah Valley Dental Lab

 

[charles007]

With all my hype about milling LD for the future, my emax and pfm business was taken over by FCZ and growing demand for zir with cutbacks... Do I miss pressing emax and casting pfms .. lol

 

[disturbed]

i do mostly emax. no fczr. my docs think its crap..thank god..

pressed is stronger than milled. significantly, especially when below manufactures minimums..many of you getting the 1.5-2 mm on occlusal?... my costs

$12.5 ingot max, often less
$40 1 hr labor ,usually less than 1 hr per.
$15 delivery
$2 product/misc.

bill out at average ,around $200

biggest difference is stronger, and $10k for presser.vs. weaker and a LOT more for mill/sinter/tools/scanner...

i will buy a scanner in the future. and a wax printer to save on labor costs. want to print large case temps and hopefully partials and dentures in the near future.

just my opinion.

 

[GAP]

.many of you getting the 1.5-2 mm on occlusal?

Nope.

If feels like gift when I get 2mm- lol.

 

[shane williams]

Thank you everybody for your input. I'm still on the fence. I do see upside with milling E-max, like being able to do everything digital, and the only other step is crystalizing it. I get that would be quit the time saver. I'm not a fan of prices of the material, as well as needing to purchase a mill that has wet capabilities. And it's not just about the money. If the price between CAD and pressed e-max was $10-20 difference that's nothing. Especially when you are already scanning/designing e-max for printing/milling wax. Cuz now you're having to get into a wet mill, lets say you go with Imes, the smallest version they make is 450i which still needs to be converted to a wet mill. The 550i is a wet dry mill. Not sure how much those beasts cost but I'm sure around 75k. And I don't see the 140i a option since it doesn't mill disks, only blocks. So I don't think spending $15-20k on a mill to only do e-max as a viable in my opinion. It would be nice if they made a little longer blank so you could double up copings in them. Just my opinion. Thanks for everybody's help on this subject.

 

[eyeloveteeth]

My understanding is that Glidewell's Obsidian is essentially the same product as the expired patent for Ivoclar's original Empress II product that was only ever used as a substructure. The patents on e.max Lithium Disilicate are current and iron-clad.

JIm

yup - I've confirmed this, with reliable sources, but NDA prohibits me from disclosing.

Ivoclar's not scared because when enough word gets around that Obsidian is basically cloned EmpressII they are thinking that in itself will generate enough bad press to squash Jimmy's operation.

I don't know if i agree with that or not, but it's good to see that the information is trickling out, some way or another

 

[eyeloveteeth]

Thank you everybody for your input. I'm still on the fence. I do see upside with milling E-max, like being able to do everything digital, and the only other step is crystalizing it. I get that would be quit the time saver. I'm not a fan of prices of the material, as well as needing to purchase a mill that has wet capabilities. And it's not just about the money. If the price between CAD and pressed e-max was $10-20 difference that's nothing. Especially when you are already scanning/designing e-max for printing/milling wax. Cuz now you're having to get into a wet mill, lets say you go with Imes, the smallest version they make is 450i which still needs to be converted to a wet mill. The 550i is a wet dry mill. Not sure how much those beasts cost but I'm sure around 75k. And I don't see the 140i a option since it doesn't mill disks, only blocks. So I don't think spending $15-20k on a mill to only do e-max as a viable in my opinion. It would be nice if they made a little longer blank so you could double up copings in them. Just my opinion. Thanks for everybody's help on this subject.

i have to say, unless your customers are pushing emax, why not do cutback zirconia for aesthetic work and go get trained for staining for all other work. You don't have a bridge count limitation, and essentially no prep limitation either.

If you're that worried about opposing dentition wearing, then hand polish the Zr.


if you're unsure about a mill, i would say start with a mill you can recoup profit pretty quick i.e. Roland DWX-50, and see where you want to go from there.

 

[shane williams]

i have to say, unless your customers are pushing emax, why not do cutback zirconia for aesthetic work and go get trained for staining for all other work. You don't have a bridge count limitation, and essentially no prep limitation either.

If you're that worried about opposing dentition wearing, then hand polish the Zr.


if you're unsure about a mill, i would say start with a mill you can recoup profit pretty quick i.e. Roland DWX-50, and see where you want to go from there.

Oh we have two Rolands and do a $hit ton of Zr. But we also do a lot of E-max. More anterior than post these days, but still do enough to ask the question.

Thanks

 

[rkm rdt]

I can make more money by outsourcing my emax cad files .

Pay as you go,no employee salary,2 day turnaround while I work on other cases.

I still press the rush cases when needed.

 

[BobCDT]

Hi Shane,
Although not available yet, Imes is manufacturing a new mill. The 250i. It's wet and dry, 5 axis and is built for milling ceramics (including LD). This mill will be fixtured for disks and blocks. We have had one on order for several months for our use at CAP. It will be considerably less expensive than the 450i. We are thinking this will be a significant advancement in dental technology for cost and improved ROI for milling ceramic.
In addition, I do believe the Patent is up on LD. If so i would expect block prices to come way down.
If anyone has more info on this please chime in.
Bob

 

[shane williams]

Hi Shane,
Although not available yet, Imes is manufacturing a new mill. The 250i. It's wet and dry, 5 axis and is built for milling ceramics (including LD). This mill will be fixtured for disks and blocks. We have had one on order for several months for our use at CAP. It will be considerably less expensive than the 450i. We are thinking this will be a significant advancement in dental technology for cost and improved ROI for milling ceramic.
In addition, I do believe the Patent is up on LD. If so i would expect block prices to come way down.
If anyone has more info on this please chime in.
Bob

Sounds awesome Bob.