E-Max cad cost vs Pressing cost

shane williams

shane williams

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I was wondering if anyone has broken down the cost analysis of what it actually costs to produce an E-max Press vs and E-max Cad crown. Like what the blue block costs, what mill is needed, bur life. Model, and scan/design are the same for both. Pressing has additional steps, sprueing, investing, pressing oven cost, ingots, devesting, desprueing. Has anyone put them side by side and actually found which one is cheaper? I know with pressing you can get several done with one ingot. How long is the milling time? Any help would be awesome! Thanks
 
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charles007

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Shane, I must be the only tech in the world that thinks its a good idea for a small lab to mill emax off an imes or better mill "Once" cheaper LD blocks come on the market..
You can't beat the price of pressing ingots, but speed milling with out the same-day crowns is worth considering..
 
ZsoltM

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I absolutely agree with Charles, especially for a small lab!!!!
Looking at numbers only could be deceiving. If you looking at all steps and costs of pressing techniques, milling is definitely worth it (if you already have a milling capability and such)
Also, if I look at it from a small labs point of view....it takes much less time to design and during mill time, I can utilize my valuable time for other other procedures.
 
sidesh0wb0b

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I was wondering if anyone has broken down the cost analysis of what it actually costs to produce an E-max Press vs and E-max Cad crown. Like what the blue block costs, what mill is needed, bur life. Model, and scan/design are the same for both. Pressing has additional steps, sprueing, investing, pressing oven cost, ingots, devesting, desprueing. Has anyone put them side by side and actually found which one is cheaper? I know with pressing you can get several done with one ingot. How long is the milling time? Any help would be awesome! Thanks

Shane,
while i have done this cost analysis with many milling setups, i do not have any figures in front of me. but i can give you my honest assessment without raw numbers.
the cost of milling for my size lab (up to about 10ppl or so) is/was far more expensive. here is the simple "why"...

-my pressing unit it paid in FULL, and has paid for itself over and over and over and over again. to replace it when its cranking out profit like it does would be silly. even if it dies and i buy a new press vs a milling unit, it still would give me a better ROI than an entire mill setup. the cost of a milling setup just doesnt make sense even without including the burs, blocks, etc. the biggest factor i attribute to this is the cost of the mill, secondarily labor. if i were to purchase a mill....which i do want to do....not only would i need a skilled tech to do design work (which is expensive labor),but they also have to know what they are doing on a computer as well. AND they still have other work to complete too. (re-training/additional training - there IS a learning curve, as with anything).
-it makes far more sense to take unskilled labor, the shipping and receiving person, box up models and slap a shipping label on them, pay a small fee to another lab thats setup for outsourcing, and get the product i want without the hassle and overhead of the mill. (for zirconia or custom milled abutments etc)
-also, if for some reason i do not get enough EMax in for milling, i still have to make the mill payment (if financed),whereas i can send a tech home if there is not enough work to fill the day.

and before i get attacked, i WANT to get myself in milling. hence why i have run the numbers....for the Roland and other mills. it just doesnt make sense at this time.
 
2thm8kr

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We're using an E4D the average cost of milling 1 crown is $50-$55 this includes the block and all consumables, burs, etc.
Milling time is between 10-20 mins. per unit. By myself with no other task to do but scan design and mill I can do 15 per 8 hour day out the door.
The mill we are using get average of 10 crowns per bur and you need 2. One for the intaglio and gingival side and one for occlusal.
After an average of 10 crowns milled burs need to be change and the coolant as well.
The cost list above does NOT include the cost of the mill.
 
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charles007

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Thomas, great points and I totally agree..
If a small lab already has a wet/dry mill, you could mill LD when the mill is finished milling zirconia and just sitting there costing money to not mill.. If switching from wet to dry and dry to wet is a problem, that would completely change my mind. I see it as labor costing more than materials in a smaller lab. If any lab can design and mill more per day than waxing and pressing, and you already have a mill or a dedicated mill for LD, please prove me wrong compared to pressing which I did for 4.5 years.

If your designing off a scanner and milling or printing wax to press, this production method could be very productive also, and at a lower cost.. I see that method as a very reliable productive alternative. A small lab, the more shades you have to press, and that can be very expensive using ingots, investment, and all the labor and time.. Its not just about labor and materials, you must also consider the time it takes to get a crown glazed and out the door, and that's my main point. With only so many working hands in a lab, its all about how many are billed out at the end of the day..
 
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charles007

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We're using an E4D the average cost of milling 1 crown is $50-$55 this includes the block and all consumables, burs, etc.

Great you chimed in, what is the average number of units that can be designed, milled and glazed in an 8 hour working day using e4d... I think your answer will validate my point..
 
2thm8kr

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Great you chimed in, what is the average number of units that can be designed, milled and glazed in an 8 hour working day using e4d... I think your answer will validate my point..

Edited my post above.^^^
 
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It would be very interesting for someone smarter than me to come up with a conclusion to this discussion ..
What I do know at this time, non cerec and e4d mills can't mill emax anywhere near 10 to 20 minutes, but that should change in the near future. I think tool life would be a lot longer in non-cerec/e4d mill, such as the imes mills, and Bob could probably answer these questions better than anyone else ..

OK Bob, time to chime in
 
sidesh0wb0b

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generally speaking, to add to the discussion, it takes me about 7-9minutes to wax a lateral, 10min for a central or cuspid, and 12-16 for bicuspids or molars.
(these are averages, some just whip out faster, some take longer)

these arent erroneous numbers, this is what i learned implementing Lean production many moons ago. gave some real helpful insight when we compared numbers and time for the purpose of purchasing a milling setup.

2thm8kr: if it takes you 10-20 min for milling, it takes about the same for me to wax. sure a few extra mins for investing (3min),and dead time burning out.....but for the most part the "time" is a wash. at least for skilled waxers. feel free to correct me if i am missing something. glazing is still glazing......and i still have yet to see milled units that fit and have marginal integrity like my hand waxes.
 
2thm8kr

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Bob,
While you are waiting for the ring to burn out press and then finish I have the first five glazed and billed.
Meanwhile as the first 5 are miling I am designing 5 more to put in the mill queue.

If the cases are scanned intra orally I can design a single molar in 5 mins or less.
If I'm scanning models 15 mins and it's going to the mill.

If I used the smaller blocks mill time is decreased as well. I just don't see an advantage to double inventory.
 
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sidesh0wb0b

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fair enough, that makes sense for the most part. thanks man!
 
BobCDT

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Hi Charles,
Milling may be or generally is more expensive than pressing . However, I don't think cost is everything when discussing this topic.
We are milling Lithium disilicate but have not yet optimized mill stratergies. Our current mill strategy is about 30 minutes a unit in the 450i pre optimized. That said, we run two CAM shifts per day and I don't think I'm overstating that we could do 35-40 units a day, possibly more. Blocks are $32, tools are likely $3-4. Scan, design, CAM and loading the mill is 10 minutes. Let's say the 10 minutes is worth about $4.
Total cost not including mill time is about $46. The 450i plus CAM software runs about $70 a day over 5 years based on 20 days a month. So my best guesstimate would be a cost of about $48 for a milled unit.

If you want to compare a milled blue block cost to milled wax and pressed, I believe the pressed will come out to be less expensive. The exact number is very tough to come up with because I'm not up on labor costs. For instance, a one man show, the pressing is quite expensive as the owner is doing all of this lower level work. In this situation, the owner could probably do a complete unit of porcelain in the time it takes to process a couple of rings. The unit of porcelain could be worth $100. If you have a lower level staff person doing the wax to glass processing pressing is less expensive than milling.

When comparing hand waxing and pressing to milling I believe the costs are close provided you spend less than $22-25 for the die spacer, and wax up.

I know the thread is about cost comparison of pressing vs. milling. But, there are pros and cons to each. I really don't think there is a clear cut best solution. Real world, it's great to be able to offer both.
Go to go. I'll post more details later.
Everyone have a great weekend!
 
corona

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everyone has good points and this is a real discussion that has impact/help on everyone . For me , now at this moment pressing is the way to go . I am like others that dont have a mill .. i want one , but the sticker price ,software updates, materials , ancillary, is no doubt far more expensive than pressing . A pressing oven will pay for itself over and over and over again . But i think the real difference comes to weight of the emax .

For example ...a milled block can only mill one unit . the price is set . (someone correct me if i am wrong since i dont have a mill) So if you want to mill 5 molars that takes 5 blocks. For pressing .....same five molars ....1 large ingot or 2 small ingots .

5 blue block vs 1 lg ingot or 2 small ingots . Thats just basic material cost . The ROI goes to pressing .

And even further and these are the ones i love : pressing a 6 unit veneer case . 1 ingot ! THE most profitable !

The only way a mill makes sense to buy to me is volume . Massive amounts of emax per day , then pressing loses the advantage .
 
BobCDT

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Hope it OK with everyone. I'm going to go off topic a bit and bring to light some additional pros for milling.
Let's look at a business model that includes a workflow of a crown in an hour from a lab to local (say a 20 mile radius) dentist. This would require a digital chair side scan, a mill in your lab and milling, finishing and a delivery of the restoration. This can be done with several ceramic blocks including e.max. This will cost more to manufacturer than pressing a milled wax up. The added costs can be added to the price of the restoration along with a priemium for the service. If the docs and or patients want or need this service they will pay for it.
Think about the potential. As a business person it can help control this geographical area. This is a workflow that China nor the large labs can't compete with. It will open doors that you have been unable to get into. In addition, if a doc in your area is thinking Cerac this provides the same patient experience, superior restoration, much smaller learning curve, much smaller investment. I believe many docs would rather go for this service than spending $125K for Cerac.
For the lab this workflow really provides a service that's extremely difficult for others to compete with. And, it's impossible for others to compete unless there proximity is local to yours.
In conclusion, milling glass may be more costly than milling wax and pressing when it comes to lithium disilicate. But, it's short sited to base the decision solely on economics.
For those of you interested in growth this is a possibly a great way to obtain new customers.
 
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Labwa

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As Bob mentioned i think they both have great benefits. If you have 5 molars all the same shade on a regular basis..i want your dentists because they must all have the A3 shade lights. I hardly ever get a situation like that. Anteriors on the other hand, yes i agree pressing is usually a cheaper option due to lower wax weight and multiple units on aesthetic cases. If we have a job come through in c3 and there is no other c2-c3 e.max going through at the same time i would rather put it in the mill than use a whole ingot, 1 bag of investment and using up the furnace time. Design and send to the mill, have it ready for finishing within 40 minutes with 5 minutes of labour. I know what i would rather do.
Great discussion though guys. Every post has brought a good point.
 
ParkwayDental

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All I Know is if if I'm doing a crown in an hour I'm charging more then $230
 
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charles007

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We all know cheaper LD blocks will be out in the near future, and the reasoning for all my posts. For companies to compete with emax, they must be cheaper and equal to or much improved to have a market of potential buyers. Lets say new blocks sell in the $15.00- $22.00 .... does this price range make it worth the extra material cost to mill over pressing ?
The other added advantage to milling over pressing is the faster turnaround, same day crowns like Bob was talking about. Offering digital fast crowns, ( I like that name, and may use it..) has the potential of picking up tons of new accounts, even if they only call for rush cases.. There's nothing more exciting than billing out crowns at rush prices . well I use to .. lol
Haven't heard the price on the new imes 140 mill, this might be a good solution for higher production, or dedicated milling of LD once cheaper blocks are released, if you already have a scanner..
 
corona

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charles007 and bobcdt have great points . IF and when the material prices go down and they will , will the profit margin to the lab go up . the problem i see is that there are just more labs offering the product ,and if your milling the product , everyone will have the same type of machine with same type of software and library so what are we really competing on? Who can do the same A1 crown the fastest ? the price will be more competative (because you need to pay for that nice milling/scanning machine ) between labs and therefore start to take a nose dive like zirconia has the big box labs will offer it even lower 25-50 % lower or more than the small 1-5 man lab . Who really wins ?

Last time i checked i was in business (as are our doctors ) to make the most profit on a service . How can a labs profitability sustain if milling machine will have to be replaced or revamped due to newer better faster more precise milling units every 3-5 years , and the price of our crowns steadily keep going down and NOT UP ? Look at our smart phone .... i remember my first one compared to the one i have now and how many i have bought since then.

I have a porcelain oven and even a pressing oven that still do the job and they are over 10 years old and still do the trick and were paid for in less than 6 months ! and i could sell them for a fair price due to the fact that they still produce devices used now . Is there a small milling machine out there that is 10 or more years old that is still doing the trick that hasnt been upgraded due to being outdated? What did that mill cost ? How much is it worth now ?
Seems like the milling companies are making a cozy profit , not the lab guy.
 
jthacke3

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We've done over 60,000 e.max and we've found waxing and pressing to be far cheaper than milling e.max CAD Blocks. It will continue to be cheaper to press until Ivoclar decides to come out with Lithium Disilicate pucks. The cost differences between the two processes will vary from lab to lab with the following factors: product volume, economies of scale (efficiencies),the skill set of lab personnel and allocation of labor resources, and the lab's fee structure with accompanying customer expectations.

For us, we design much of our e.max Press on our 3Shape, mill carvable wax with our Roland, seal the margins under a microscope, and press. By doing so, we get the best of both worlds...cheap, fast waxing designed digitally and the predictability of pressing. We tried milling e.max CAD with our Cerec MCXL with inconsistent results. Sometimes the margins would turn out fine and other times our most expensive technicians were having to make significant adjustments to the case to make it acceptable enough to sell. The predictability and cost of pressing made it a no-brainer for us. We make a lot of e.max in our lab and our current systems lend for greatest profitability in our business model. However that is constantly evolving as the costs of the variables change.

Jim Thacker
Utah Valley Dental Lab
 

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