Does stain and glaze really wear off?

[rkm rdt]

I've always been told that stain and glaze will eventually wear off.

However I'm not sure I have ever seen it.Do all s&g's wear off? Only low fusing?
Are there pics?
I hear this about fcz's but I use GC Luster Paste.I'm told it's not a glaze yet everyone calls it as such.

Call me an s&g denier if you must but is it true or is it just another inconvenient truth?

 

[2thm8kr]

I have redone monolithic empress veneers. It seems the hygentist's polished off the characterization stains over time. Don't know about the newer stains and 'glazes'. I guess time will tell???

 

[Car 54]

Good question.

I've asked tech support this before and maybe it was Ivoclar? about staining monolithic restorations concerning the stain and glaze wearing off. I was told that when we stain the porc. directly, that it will "penetrate" ~5-7 microns in (maybe in the gaps, valleys we would see in the porc under extreme magnification). So then if we do that, and then put a glaze over that, does that help create a barrier (for awhile) from the glaze breaking down then getting to the stain surface? Whoever I talked to, couldn't answer that one with certainty. Are some glazes more durable, less soluble than others? Are toothpastes less aggressive than 10-15 years ago, and do not abrade the surface as with grandmas baking soda toothpaste?

Edit: and as 2thm8kr mentioned, do we need to let the Dr know of our staining a crown or veneer as to have the hygienist back off from polishing/pumicing (sp) it off?

 

[doug]

Years ago when we did Dicor crowns we would stain and glaze the crowns, and then fire a coat of just glaze over that. 30 years later I've seen some of them still in the mouth and they look pretty dam good. I think it really has a lot to do with how you treat the process of glazing.

 

[Car 54]

Is there a difference in the higher fusing glazes compared to the lower fusing glazes in that they may be filled with other lower fusing additives to glaze at lower temps and could break down more easily? Maybe Patrick will also stop by with some thoughts and insights for us?

 

[PDC]

Is there a difference in the higher fusing glazes compared to the lower fusing glazes in that they may be filled with other lower fusing additives to glaze at lower temps and could break down more easily? Maybe Patrick will also stop by with some thoughts and insights for us?

I've heard of guys actually mixing a little low fusing (add-on) porcelain into the glaze for FCZ and firing it at a high temp so as to avoid any of the problems you mentioned. I have seen old Empress crowns where the glaze appears to have almost disappeared. There are a lot of factors that I think come into play as far as how well the glaze holds up. If I had to rank which materials hold their glaze the best, I would put Pfms first, Emax, and then Zirconia. It seems that the effects of a hygienist's prophy cup does not affect the overall appearance of the first 2 as much as what happens to the zirconia when you wear through the glaze layer. I rubber wheel all of my emax crown after they have been glazed and think they look even better. I always put 2 layers, sometimes 3, on my FCZ and fire it at a higher temp.

 

[charles007]

Excellent question and I've wondered that for years now.
Having worked in-house in the past I randomly had to match old pfms, and there the hardest to match. I must disagree with PDC on PFMS as the best, but I have no clue which materials stains hold up the best.
My gut feeling and intuition tells me GC Lustre is the best since it has a mixture of porcelain and might be the longest lasting stains if fired twice.
Porcelain is so porous, it stains over the years, crowns turn grey looking, and stains where off.
Changing the subject for a minute and talking about prophy cup/ hygiene appointments ! my best friend and lab tech with the same amount of years at the monkey bench made a mouth full of crowns for his wife over the year. As his wife's crowns started aging he learned the porcelain shoulder margins were chipping off...can I say hygienist.. fyi I made the last couple of crowns for her using emax and she said they were the most natural feeling crowns in her mouth and felt like her remaining few teeth not crowns. I told my friend I didn't make fat ugly crowns like him... lol I've heard from other emax patients emax feels more like natural teeth.

Most of us know Empress stains do wear off over time and look awful, I guess emax will do the same in the years to come ?
Todays stain are fine grain, will this make any differences on pfms ?
Taking Ivoclar Emax course years ago they taught us the 2 firing staining technique is better and maybe longer lasting ?
How will any brand of stains hold up long term on more dense materials like LD and zirconia ? guess we are again the beta testing labs.

My solution, color better so as to depend less on external staining, and veneer more with mono occlusion on prescribed FC LD or zirconia.
Sorry, I have more questions than answers.

 

[Gru]

John Kois presented an unrelated but interesting chart (subject: enamel wear) of the abrasive quality of toothpastes. Many have titanium in them and are very abrasive, especially the "whitening" lines. Baking soda was listed as one of the least abrasive on the list. BTW he maintained in the lecture that no one should brush within half an hour of consuming citric acid based drinks (think orange juice, Mountain Dew, etc) because it softens the enamel.

 

[rkm rdt]

We know leucite based ceramics are the softest.This is why it's used in chair side milling as well.
Could it be that empress stains wear off faster because of the porcelain?

Vita Mark 2 is another ceramic.Vita Akzent (sp?) stains would wear similar to empress.

Let me ask you this, if the average crown lasts 8 years, does the s&g wear faster or about the same/

 

[Tom Moore]

Inside the big picture I have things to worry about, but glaze wearing off my crowns....not so much. I should live so long.

 

[Kristopher Devers]

Excellent question and I've wondered that for years now.
Having worked in-house in the past I randomly had to match old pfms, and there the hardest to match. I must disagree with PDC on PFMS as the best, but I have no clue which materials stains hold up the best.
My gut feeling and intuition tells me GC Lustre is the best since it has a mixture of porcelain and might be the longest lasting stains if fired twice.
Porcelain is so porous, it stains over the years, crowns turn grey looking, and stains where off.
Changing the subject for a minute and talking about prophy cup/ hygiene appointments ! my best friend and lab tech with the same amount of years at the monkey bench made a mouth full of crowns for his wife over the year. As his wife's crowns started aging he learned the porcelain shoulder margins were chipping off...can I say hygienist.. fyi I made the last couple of crowns for her using emax and she said they were the most natural feeling crowns in her mouth and felt like her remaining few teeth not crowns. I told my friend I didn't make fat ugly crowns like him... lol I've heard from other emax patients emax feels more like natural teeth.

Most of us know Empress stains do wear off over time and look awful, I guess emax will do the same in the years to come ?
Todays stain are fine grain, will this make any differences on pfms ?
Taking Ivoclar Emax course years ago they taught us the 2 firing staining technique is better and maybe longer lasting ?
How will any brand of stains hold up long term on more dense materials like LD and zirconia ? guess we are again the beta testing labs.

My solution, color better so as to depend less on external staining, and veneer more with mono occlusion on prescribed FC LD or zirconia.
Sorry, I have more questions than answers.

It is important for hygienist to be careful how they use ultrasonic cleaning instruments around the margins of crowns....so that is one consideration....another could be
abfraction. While whether abfraction occurs is not accepted by all dentists....I believe it does occur. Occlusion has to be properly balanced and bitesplint to protect from parafunctional habits. Abfraction is one possible cause of the chipping porcelain.

 

[Kristopher Devers]

I've always been told that stain and glaze will eventually wear off.

However I'm not sure I have ever seen it.Do all s&g's wear off? Only low fusing?
Are there pics?
I hear this about fcz's but I use GC Luster Paste.I'm told it's not a glaze yet everyone calls it as such.

Call me an s&g denier if you must but is it true or is it just another inconvenient truth?

I posted a similar question on cerecdoctors.com to see what some of their clinical experience has been and if they could point me in the direction of clinical research studies. I'll post back once I find some legitimate info.

 

[Kristopher Devers]

We know leucite based ceramics are the softest.This is why it's used in chair side milling as well.
Could it be that empress stains wear off faster because of the porcelain?

Vita Mark 2 is another ceramic.Vita Akzent (sp?) stains would wear similar to empress.

Let me ask you this, if the average crown lasts 8 years, does the s&g wear faster or about the same/

It is commonly accepted that crowns on avg last 7/8 years. So in most cases on avg that is all we really need to be concerned with. I personally would like to see my cases....especially cosmetic ones....last longer then that and maintain their longevity, but in the real world, patients should be educated that they do have a finite lifetime and then they will need to be replaced.

 

[2thm8kr]

It is commonly accepted that crowns on avg last 7/8 years. So in most cases on avg that is all we really need to be concerned with. I personally would like to see my cases....especially cosmetic ones....last longer then that and maintain their longevity, but in the real world, patients should be educated that they do have a finite lifetime and then they will need to be replaced.

While I agree with you on some of your points. The first case I ever did was an acrylic faced gold bridge....the only thing wrong with it, the acrylic was worn off and discolored. It was 40+ years old.

 

[Kristopher Devers]

While I agree with you on some of your points. The first case I ever did was an acrylic faced gold bridge....the only thing wrong with it, the acrylic was worn off and discolored. It was 40+ years old.

I believe it....I commonly see gold work that is 30-40 years old....and most of it still looks great. If you want longevity....I don't believe that you can beat gold.

Expanding on the fact that research shows crowns to last 7/8 years.....replacement after this amount of time often is not due to material failure....most commonly it is new caries around the restoration that causes this. Gold seems to be more resistant to new cavities and also easier to more seemless undetectable margins.

 

[PDC]

Cars wear out, hips wear out, knees wear out, and I'm worn out.

 

[CatamountRob]

Inside the big picture I have things to worry about, but glaze wearing off my crowns....not so much. I should live so long.

An elderly guy I once went to visit told me that he'd reached the age where you stop buying green bananas. He said it with a big smile, we should all be so fortunate.

 

[Patrick Coon]

This is my personal opinion and not anything official from IV, but in my experience, I would say that a two stage stain then glaze should last the life of the restoration (8-10 years) in non-functional areas (axial walls),but all stain/glaze is going to wear off of any area in function or occlusion after a short time (~1-1.5 years). This is the main reason I teach all students to fully polish the functional areas of a ZrO2 restoration, so that when (not if) the glaze wears off the surface in function will not wear the opposing.

Of course this is assuming that the patient is not brushing with a steel brush and beach sand, and the hygienist is not super polishing the ceramic during cleanings. I know when I was a dental assistant in the Air Force and was taught to clean teeth (yes, assistants do that in the military),we were taught not to polish crowns with a paste containing pumice, as it would damage the surface and scratch gold.

 

[rkm rdt]

I'm not buying the"hygenist polished off my stain" angle either.

Why would they have to clean an area that doesn't stain unless they're getting paid by the tooth?

Quite frankly, I think some techs and dentists see old crowns that don't colour match and assume the stain has worn off.

When in fact it's the other teeth around that 30 year old crown that have aged.

 

[Kristopher Devers]

Consensus from the other dentists I talked to was.....within a few years it wears off in the functional areas and should be intraorally polished with ceramic polishers. Non functional areas tend to last the life of the restoration. Most of them use stain/glaze as opposed to layering porcelain and don't see any reason to do it different.