Digital dentures?? Thoughts?

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Davesgone

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Anyone using digital dentures? What’s the financial cost to get started? Dentists on board yet?:rolleyes:
 
2thm8kr

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Sorry Dave, I couldn't resist.Dontknow
 
CoolHandLuke

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cost to enter production depends on your metrics of quality.

and whether or not you want to own your equipment.

Ivoclar will sell you a PM7 and some discs and you can design your own ones, or you can design your own ones and print the base and teeth, or you can buy pre-set arches and just mill the intaglio surfaces, or you can have a data farm print your items and shim them to you to glue together.

each has its own pricepoint, but its a field that is growing every year.
 
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Anyone using digital dentures? What’s the financial cost to get started? Dentists on board yet?:rolleyes:
I have been looking into Digital Dentures for more than 2 years. Do not eat the hype that all the companies are shoving down our throats. It is not as good as a traditional one and all materials are not approved by the FDA or ADA. A descent printer will run you $14000 and unless you have 3shape or an open system you have to pay to download the file. Resins are not that cheap and not 100% screw up free. Be snort and do your homework. Read as much as you can about it. That is my opinion.
Ps: Some of the companies that make resins so far, to my knowledge, have approval from FDA to use their materials for a period of 6 months to 3 years max. That is why no one is saying this is permanent denture. It is a temp denture.
 
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Bcontreras

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I've been around Digital Dentures for the past year and have seen several being delivered as an immediate or healing denture after full mouth extractions and quite honestly they were great! Nice esthetics and fit, and the patients felt very comfortable with them. I think they are fantastic at least as an immediate denture, still I wouldn't know enough first hand on how they pan out longterm.

I have also been to the Digital Removables design course with Evolve dentistry and I think using Joshua Jakson's process with exocad can actually make Digital Dentures affordable and efficient.
 
Terry Whitty

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To mill or print?

Both are valid and at the moment yield different results .

Printed dentures definitely have a place, government dentures, immediates, temporary, get out of jail dentures , try ins and long term temps.
This technology will get better.

Milling can give excellent results but the cost can be high, and throughput slow.

Whatever you choose , you need

Digitiser ( some form of scanner j
Software for setting up digital dentures
Mill or printer...or both
Knowledge

It will be a bit of trial and error to get to the point where you are happy with results.

To look out for IMO

Printer.... Asia MAX versatile and open material printer.
Mill .....Roland 52 or 52DCi with up and coming new denture add on .... very innovative and you can use any acrylic , any teeth!
 
Labwa

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The ROI on the mills are not great doing dentures...even running 24/7. The ROI on printers is better but the materials are not great. IMO some get great results..some get really average results. Until it is as good or better than the current situation i don't see a reason to shift.
 
bigj1972

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The ROI on the mills are not great doing dentures...even running 24/7. The ROI on printers is better but the materials are not great. IMO some get great results..some get really average results. Until it is as good or better than the current situation i don't see a reason to shift.

Even though we desperately need it, I totally agree. Resins for base and teeth are not even close. They are well enough for an immediate/temporary denture, but patients are not gonna pay $1500+ for a denture they have to replace ever 12 months, Dentists are not gonna pay a lab $350 ever 12 months. And Labs are not gonna print a replacement for $50 every 12 months to make everything workout for dentist/patient.
 
Terry Whitty

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Yes I agree , buying a mill just to make Dentures is a decision that needs great thought. Possibly if you already have a Mill and would like to experiment then fine, But as a production centre Milling dentures all day it would be difficult to justify a big investment. This is Moreso true if it would be your first leap onto the digital world ... there are many skills to master and a fair bit cash to outlay.
 
JMN

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If you don't already know how to use the equipment to do what you plan, you are looking at an expensive education. One that could put you out of business.

Start off a piece at a time. Scan and design will occupy enough of your brain plasticity for a year. Then when you get firm on how that works and what results are adjusted by what changes, then and only then would a manufacturing choice be a wise investment.

Printing is cheaper, sure. But there is a learning curve there that will drive you nuts too if you have no experience with it. Experience with a Rep-Rap Mendel FDM desktop printer is not going to give you anything close to a full understanding of dealing with any of the competing vat systems.

When you are starting out you don't have enough data to know when you are changing multiple variables with one adjustment nor what result those adjustments should prevent or should produce.
 
CoolHandLuke

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If you don't already know how to use the equipment to do what you plan, you are looking at an expensive education. One that could put you out of business.

this is true in a general sense - but i feel like specifically in Dental much of the science and craft of running a CNC, knowing how to create CAM, or designing your prosthetic are very watered down, and contain a lot of hand holding.

i believe its far easier to run a dental printer than it is to run a rep-rap. this is part and parcel of the dental industry growing into digital instead of digital growing within the industry, as 3d printers normally would grow through industrial technology shifts.

for example none of the printers you buy today will come industry 4.0 spec to be able to easily add automation - because automation of these machines was not a deciding factor in their purchase. yes they are automateABLE via some integration work, any industrial 3d printer such as for example any of the 3dsystems MJP, or Connex by stratasys would be considered Industry 4.0 spec as they are outfitted with onboard computers and wifi and comm ports capable of reading and writing external networking and I/O signals, to work in a factory setting.

Labs arent considered Factory settings, so many CNC's and printers have all this hardware excised. this drives down costs, helps you the lab owner buy in, and allows the units some form of internal automation with software.

dental CAM doesnt require you to create new toolpaths with every job, instead they allow you to recycle toolpaths by creating a sort of template or macro structure for your toolpaths. you don't need to assign new tools, those are saved for you. all the typically machinist duties (or most of them) are trimmed down and semi-automated to be point and click and don't worry we've done the thinking for you.

this makes the systems mostly turn-key, but for manual learning not so much of how to be a machinist - but how to operate the controls. the thinking's mostly done unless some shape that is given doesn't work.

i wouldn't say that theres an expensive education going on with any of the machines you can buy in dental today. i would say even parts that aren't fully or are improperly machined CAN come out finished properly with some hand work, and in the end thats shipped as OK by all the machine makers in our industry - they know we all finish these crowns and dentures by hand anyway, theres no point and no money in selling a fully turn key AI driven factory for dentures that guarantees fit and finish. an undermilled crown that requires a bit of hand finish, is shipped as OK by the Argens of the world. because they know you as an owner can't put the time into improving these templated functions. they don't consider it part of your interests to have objects come out finished. its a waste of machine labor, when you are doing so much hand work. make it rough, get it into the oven. thats priority. that makes you money, and that makes you come back for more.

if anyone bought a Haas VMC and tried to turn it into a dental machine they'd quickly realize and appreciate all the backend development that went into a 'dental' mill. your work holding area contains exactly 0 holder for your disc, so you'd have to engineer one (or buy the Haas accessory),add the 4th and 5th axis, add a home and touch point macro, AND block it from running outside the workzone by creating CAM that forces the same touch point and zeros for every job so the machine doesnt crash. THATS when you see the benefits of having the locked and constricted workzone and semi-auto CAM. its only of benefit to hire and use trained CNC experts if you desire to work outside the dental environment.

i'm only advocating FOR the dental environment for people buying equipment. because yes, while an imes icore 650i might cost 3x as much as a Haas VMC the value for dental is in the work to ensure it can't crash or go awry unless you tamper with it.
 
Terry Whitty

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I think all valid what CHL says.

However ,

I have dental customers that don’t even manage their own email... so in fact anything to do with a computer is “ difficult” or a challenge for them. Considering most machines in dental are now computer based and/or need some computer skills then there are problems.

Even if the machine has been “ dentalised” it can still be a challenge for many.

I think experienced people tend to forget the basics can be a huge hurdle for the newcomer. I am guilty of this myself , but I just have to keep reminding myself everyday .
I highly recommend if you dive into digital and your computer skills are not up to scratch , do a course .. or hire a tech person.
 
rkm rdt

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I struggle to get that little Italian plumber to jump on mushrooms.
 
CoolHandLuke

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but beware of putting your coffee cup handle near the edge of the lifter.
 

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