Die Stone

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#1
I know I know this has been talked through before but I wanted to see if there's newer opinions.

What is everyone currently using?

We currently use Talladium's Tuff Rock in white. I personally like it but I've been wondering if it may be causing some problems.

This one doctor always complains that his crowns are too tight. He always asks for as much die spacer as we can. I am always adding as much as the slider lets me on exocad and also started expanding the crown on the x/y axis about 0.02. To me this just seems more like a band-aid to a different problem.

Could it be a problem that this stone just expands too litttle? According to Talladium it expands 0.05% which seems to be on the lower end for all the type IV die stones out there.

Only this doctor complains about that unless there's more doctors with the same problem but they're just not saying anything?

-

Back to die stone brands. Pretty much everyone seems to agree that Fujirock is really good. I'm just a bit confused with all the different ones they have which honestly seem the same. They have EP, EP Premium, and New Fujirock.... The expansions seem to be really similar... Any ideas on what's the difference? I asked GC and I was sent some descriptions that dont help at all.

Also, does anyone have a preference in color or think there are benefits of some colors? GC seems to mention the brown or ivory is ideal for ceramic restorations. I personally like plain white but I'm always open to suggestions.

Thanks!
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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#4
if its only one Dr i can tell you for certain its an impressioning issue.
care to post some imp pics?
 
JMN

JMN

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#5
I know I know this has been talked through before but I wanted to see if there's newer opinions.

What is everyone currently using?

We currently use Talladium's Tuff Rock in white. I personally like it but I've been wondering if it may be causing some problems.

This one doctor always complains that his crowns are too tight. He always asks for as much die spacer as we can. I am always adding as much as the slider lets me on exocad and also started expanding the crown on the x/y axis about 0.02. To me this just seems more like a band-aid to a different problem.

Could it be a problem that this stone just expands too litttle? According to Talladium it expands 0.05% which seems to be on the lower end for all the type IV die stones out there.

Only this doctor complains about that unless there's more doctors with the same problem but they're just not saying anything?

-

Back to die stone brands. Pretty much everyone seems to agree that Fujirock is really good. I'm just a bit confused with all the different ones they have which honestly seem the same. They have EP, EP Premium, and New Fujirock.... The expansions seem to be really similar... Any ideas on what's the difference? I asked GC and I was sent some descriptions that dont help at all.

Also, does anyone have a preference in color or think there are benefits of some colors? GC seems to mention the brown or ivory is ideal for ceramic restorations. I personally like plain white but I'm always open to suggestions.

Thanks!
Too tight also frequently equals small temps and shifting teeth.
 
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#7
I like New Fuji Rock. Handles like Die Keen. .08 expansion. Alabaster Ivory ;)

EP has synthetics added. Premium I believe is lower expansion.
 
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charles007

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#9
Started using low expansion Fuji Rock around 1991 and always thought it was more accurate. Used T Tuff Rock and its great also and slightly harder. Always heard to use high expansion die stones with docs who have impression problems, meaning, unexplainable remakes/bad impressions.
I would recommend switching to high expansion stone for this 1 doc and charge for all remakes. Wouldn't change to extreme on gap spacer setting in your cad.
Spacer setting in your cad only changes the gap above the margins, but it does create looser fits.
The impression is the root of the problem.
 
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#12
if its only one Dr i can tell you for certain its an impressioning issue.
care to post some imp pics?
From looking at the impressions it doesn't seem like an HH technique. Both light body and heavy body look like they set at the same time since they looked mixed in some areas.

The blue/green impressions are new cases. The other one is a case that came back because it is too tight. There are no undercuts on the preps. I had set the die spacer to 0.07 and additional axial and radial spacing to 0.02.

Most of his preparations do have knife edge margins and sometimes the walls of the prep do seem somewhat vertical. Maybe that's the problem?





 
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#13
I like New Fuji Rock. Handles like Die Keen. .08 expansion. Alabaster Ivory ;)

EP has synthetics added. Premium I believe is lower expansion.
Is it dusty?

Tuff Rock has resin in it so it doesn't really leave dust but very small shavings that are pretty easy to clean.
 
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#14
Is it dusty?

Tuff Rock has resin in it so it doesn't really leave dust but very small shavings that are pretty easy to clean.
I def think its his preps. Wheres the chamfer? Too parallel. Hit him with some kind words and a prep guide.

Dusty...yes. That's the last on my list of concerns.
 
Affinity

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#15
Used to use zhermack, its great but I think fuji is better, thats all I use now. Buy 3 get 1 free, how can you go wrong?
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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#16
From looking at the impressions it doesn't seem like an HH technique. Both light body and heavy body look like they set at the same time since they looked mixed in some areas.

The blue/green impressions are new cases. The other one is a case that came back because it is too tight. There are no undercuts on the preps. I had set the die spacer to 0.07 and additional axial and radial spacing to 0.02.

Most of his preparations do have knife edge margins and sometimes the walls of the prep do seem somewhat vertical. Maybe that's the problem?





ok, first thing i see...cheapie plastic trays. not saying that IS the issue....but if for ANY reason he isnt following protocol with the impression technique and setup times, then the tray will distort. especially if there are tray hits from hard tissue areas or teeth. see if you can get him a low wall metal tray, like clinicians choice and see if it makes a difference. even if you buy a dozen trays it may save you time, money, and an account.
http://www.clinicianschoice.com/product/quad-tray-xtreme-impression-tray/
second, i would tend to agree on the first two impressions that it looks like the light and medium body are mixed well. double check with the Dr and see if he is using a timer INCLUDING timing the loading of the tray time. had a client once that would load a tray in about 15sec and the material allowed for a 1min 30sec load time. he started his timer when it went in the mouth and that extra 1min 15sec made a world of difference. once he started including that time in his timer, his remakes disappeared. i mean almost completely gone!
lastly, the 3rd image you posted shows a concerning area to me....behind the lingual area of #10 it looks like theres a gap between med body and the green wash. you cut right through it with your knife. if you pry at the wash, does it stay stuck to the medium body? or does it peel away? if it peels away that is prob your culprit.
 
JMN

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#17
From looking at the impressions it doesn't seem like an HH technique. Both light body and heavy body look like they set at the same time since they looked mixed in some areas.

The blue/green impressions are new cases. The other one is a case that came back because it is too tight. There are no undercuts on the preps. I had set the die spacer to 0.07 and additional axial and radial spacing to 0.02.

Most of his preparations do have knife edge margins and sometimes the walls of the prep do seem somewhat vertical. Maybe that's the problem?





Who is removing the cord from the impression? If it's stuck just wrong, it will distort or tear the impression if removed wrong or at all. I can see the cord's impression on some of them is what caught my attention. Use a pair of super sharp tiny scissors and leave the cord if in any doubt.
 
Affinity

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#18
Sounds like bad distorted impressions, not your stone or spacer settings. Unless your stone is shrinking it shouldnt pose that problem. Especially if no one else complains of it. Some Drs think a crown 'fits' tight or actually doesnt seat and send it back but they dont adjust the contacts..:banghead:
 
Affinity

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#19
Have him take some impressions that ARENT in a triple tray, that is a surefire way to eliminate one huge possibility. Or maybe have them take both, then you can see how it fits on both.
 
PRO ARTS DL

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#20
ok, first thing i see...cheapie plastic trays. not saying that IS the issue....but if for ANY reason he isnt following protocol with the impression technique and setup times, then the tray will distort. especially if there are tray hits from hard tissue areas or teeth. see if you can get him a low wall metal tray, like clinicians choice and see if it makes a difference. even if you buy a dozen trays it may save you time, money, and an account.
http://www.clinicianschoice.com/product/quad-tray-xtreme-impression-tray/
second, i would tend to agree on the first two impressions that it looks like the light and medium body are mixed well. double check with the Dr and see if he is using a timer INCLUDING timing the loading of the tray time. had a client once that would load a tray in about 15sec and the material allowed for a 1min 30sec load time. he started his timer when it went in the mouth and that extra 1min 15sec made a world of difference. once he started including that time in his timer, his remakes disappeared. i mean almost completely gone!
lastly, the 3rd image you posted shows a concerning area to me....behind the lingual area of #10 it looks like theres a gap between med body and the green wash. you cut right through it with your knife. if you pry at the wash, does it stay stuck to the medium body? or does it peel away? if it peels away that is prob your culprit.
Thanks. That timing wait sounds really interesting. I'll speak with him about that.

The material does stay together on that impression where there's a small void.

I've actually tried getting a hold of hims for the past few days but he's been too busy :(
 
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