Dental lab fees for 3-D models

[bigj1972]

I remember a guy. They made some money in the stock market and cashed out wanted to invest in a business. So a rep got in their ear as the story was told about the fantastic future in digital dentistry. So after a few hundred thousand dollars of spending on a couple mills, ovens, furnaces, software, you name it. Top of the line dental benches and workstations. Even a logo car. A whole dental catalog wish book of equipment. Then pricing the crown at $77. Needless to say 18 months later, bankrupt. Never to be heard from again. But after creditors took everything, they listed all the leftover equipment on eBay. And these were like multi-thousand dollar mestra workstations. As far as I could tell nobody bought the stuff, because who's going to buy $3,500 benchs off eBay? But there was listing after listing of all kinds of stuff. Blew my mind.

The important thing is the rep is still employed, promoting a new fantastic future.

 

[TheLabGuy]

Know your ROI (Return on investment)...and as pcdl states, a simple cost analysis. I couldn't go backwards if I wanted too and over 70% is all digital. So yes, you can grow into digital, grow smartly as I was suggesting. For instance, if I was sending out more than 10 models a week to argen...that's $300/week, $1200/month. That would make me look into printers out there...and so on and so on. Granted, some folks are winding down in their life while others are going full speed, do your cost analysis and ROI is my suggestion.

 

[rkm rdt]

Circle jerking in a rubber bowl loses its appeal after a while.
I'd rather scroll with a mouse. Less cleanup.

 

[bigj1972]

Circle jerking in a rubber bowl loses its appeal after a while.
I'd rather scroll with a mouse. Less cleanup.

 

[Andrew Priddy]

Circle jerking in a rubber bowl loses its appeal after a while.
I'd rather scroll with a mouse. Less cleanup.

exactly.. paying to have no mess and one less pickup run... sounds..
much more satisfying.

im the model person, and I make too much for the model room... can't hire a person, so how many more restorations can I take in if I stay digital and drop my models off on Argen? it won't be a wash, but its enough for me to keep the direction im on.

 

[bigj1972]

exactly.. paying to have no mess and one less pickup run... sounds..
much more satisfying.

im the model person, and I make too much for the model room... can't hire a person, so how many more restorations can I take in if I stay digital and drop my models off on Argen? it won't be a wash, but its enough for me to keep the direction im on.

Which is all good if the models were consistently good. But 3d printed models are not that accurate consistently, but every printer sold since the Form2 has been celebrated the final solution. Stone was always accurate in the impression that was given. We could blame a bad impression. Now we're chasing phantoms in every direction after spending the money for "accuracy". Except now .we can't blame a bad impression.

And if you followed the other threads, Argen is running room fulls of equipment running 24/7 and still can't keep up. They no longer have the down time to do the calibration and maintenance. So who knows how good your model's going to be today.

In the ad, these printer manufacturers show models crammed full on a build plate edge to edge to show how many you can do. But after your invested, oh you have to print here in the center because of the light scatter, and you have to rotate and print at this angle because of the voxel density, and blah blah blah.

Consequently if you look at the ads showcasing those 20 model build plates you'll see it's all multiples of the same. Too bad they don't make a suck down and then test it on every model to prove what they say.

 

[Andrew Priddy]

no doubt. and I also thought the F2 was crap when I had to work with them..
if I could buy what I wanted, I may be swayed in several directions, but that isn't the case... what I "want to build" is pretty elastic, and I will have plenty of options/directions with only just a few accounts...

our first $ will be "in the black", and then we shall have more machines.

 

[doug]

Consequently if you look at the ads showcasing those 20 model build plates you'll see it's all multiples of the same. Too bad they don't make a suck down and then test it on every model to prove what they say.

How accurate do you think suck-down is going to be? We have repeatable results with printing.

 

[PCDL]

I don't think that'll buy a carton of cigarettes anymore. No offense. But at least your attention to numbers is excellent. Now if you would boost your sale price to 75% profit.....

Not with low volume, but once you crest a certain volume, scale comes into play. For most commercial (20+) labs, zirconia is a commodity item, and it's just a numbers game. My time and effort is all centered on my large implant, all on x, and conversion work. Zirconia just keeps the lights on.

 

[Contraluz]

No Charge unless we do JUST models. Then its $30/case. The model charge is built into the crown fee of $99.

Labor:
Case Entry - $1.50
Model Design - 4.00
Crown Design- 4.00
Nesting/Milling- 3.50
De-Puck/Sinter- 3.50
Finish/S+G - 8.00
Billing - $1.50
Delivery - $3.00
Overhead - $1.25

Materials:
Model Resin- 4.25
ZR Preshaded/ML - 4.00
Finishing - 1.00
S+G - 3.00
Crown Box - .50

Total= $43.00 ( 56.6% Profit)

Know your numbers, your costs and your margins. Then you can make an informed decision on what to charge and where your prices should be.

Interesting! May I ask, how big is your lab? Also, I assume in overhead you have rent/lease and depreciation and everything else included?

The model charge is built into the crown fee of $99

Yeah, that figure does not work for me... But I also don't have the volume to get to the numbers you are displaying above.

 

[tehnik]

What zirconia costs 4.- per unit?

ZR Preshaded/ML - 4.00

 

[PCDL]

What zirconia costs 4.- per unit?

Take your puck price - divide by average units per best job, get cost/unit. I pay $84 for a 14mm ml puck, and average 22-24 units per puck.

 

[PCDL]

and if all "I" get is $8 fk dollars to contour, stain and glaze a crown...
then I quit.

Remember, that's not what I'm paying someone. That what it costs per unit. A production S+G tech should be contouring and Glazing 18-25 units/day. Daily salary/units.

 

[Car 54]

Take your puck price - divide by average units per best job, get cost/unit. I pay $84 for a 14mm ml puck, and average 22-24 units per puck.

May I ask please, what pre-shaded multilayer zirconia are you using? Are you getting a volume discount?
TIA

 

[bigj1972]

Consequently if you look at the ads showcasing those 20 model build plates you'll see it's all multiples of the same. Too bad they don't make a suck down and then test it on every model to prove what they say.

How accurate do you think suck-down is going to be? We have repeatable results with printing

No, No..... I mean create a "matrix" that measures each cast of these,

then test for variances. Theoretically every one should be identical. Yes you can have repeatable results. Every time I print out my stormtrooper helmet, it looks like a stormtrooper helmet. But if I'm printing out a removable dye, it should fit every time. And open or heavy contacts should be a thing of the past.


But I'm not speaking of the accuracy of 3D printers, nor custom tolerances in the software. I'm purely speaking of build plate position of accuracy versus the ad they advertise filling a build plate full of models like you just cram in as many as you want and press play, and boom your high production. So after its purchased, then it's "No you have to just print 1/3 and turn it this way."

 

[tehnik]

This is exactly what I was asking, I want to know the brand, as it sounds like a cheap Chinese to me. I have twice the price per unit and I am using Katana, Pritidenta, Nacera, Aidite and Dental Direkt.

May I ask please, what pre-shaded multilayer zirconia are you using? Are you getting a volume discount?
TIA

 

[Car 54]

This is exactly what I was asking, I want to know the brand, as it sounds like a cheap Chinese to me. I have twice the price per unit and I am using Katana, Pritidenta, Nacera, Aidite and Dental Direkt.

If it was a 14mm white disc, maybe that could be found at 84. yet still at a discount price?
I'm routinely using Argen and Ivoclar, which is up there, especially Ivoclar. One of my accounts is set on Bruxzir, Shaded 16 Plus (it's not a multi layer) is ~90.00 for a 14mm disc.

 

[bigj1972]

This is exactly what I was asking, I want to know the brand, as it sounds like a cheap Chinese to me......

 

[Markyboy]

I dont see the value in paying extra for digital models. If I was a patient I would want and impression taken. Its just business though and the Dr has made his choice so he shouldnt expect it to be cheap. I heard his old lab didnt charge him for the models but then he was upset getting charged for some remakes. Red flag!! He is getting charged for models and if he dont like it .... C Ya.

There does seem to be a huge difference between what we all charge for crowns/models. Even within Canada east to west there is a difference. Some labs are only focussed on undercutting others to get work (they are the real problem). I dont know how a lab wouldnt charge for digital models! I have to focus on my cost and ROE in order to be fair to myself.

 

[bigj1972]

You can always smell a cheap ass....why work hard to be poor? Kick'em down the line.

Let's say an I-phone cost $45 to make, Apple would be stupid to sell it for $80. Profit is made at the POS. Not hoping you can be priced low enough to sell 100,000 units into the future to make a profit.