Cement for bonding PMMA temp to inserts?? Need immediate help Please.

[Norm9]

Hi,
I have a full arch case due Monday morning. I have cemented the PMMA bridge to the titanium inserts (they are conical) 2 times, Both times it came loose as I was screwing it to the model with the tissue in place(after curing overnight). The first time was with 3m Rely-X (which is what one of the large milling centers uses and the 2nd time I used Ivoclar Multilink Hybrid Abutment.
I sandblasted the mating surfaces and used Monobond on the Multilink
Can anyone tell me why it is coming loose and how to keep it from de-bonding?
Any help would be greatly appreciated as it is Saturday evening and patient is coming in Monday 8am
Thanks

 

[Sevan P]

Ivoclar multilink and monobond plus with ivoclar sr connect.

Sr connect is the bonder for the pmma side while monobond is the bonder for the ti insert side. Multiple is the cement. Wroks great.

Light cure Sr connect for 15 seconds then cement.

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[prestige.dental]

We Chair side from zest.

 

[Norm9]

Thanks for the reply, unfortunatly I do not have the SR connect. I have Multilink Primer A & B
would that work or do you have other suggestions.

 

[Contraluz]

Ivoclar multilink and monobond plus with ivoclar sr connect.

I have had issues with it, too. Even following your protocol.

I have been using Ivoclar's 'Telio Lab' for that purpose. Not perfect either, but it has been holding up, so far.

 

[Sevan P]

Gc America has some stuff as well but I'm not that sure how it works or what it is called.

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[Sda36]

Hi,
I have a full arch case due Monday morning. I have cemented the PMMA bridge to the titanium inserts (they are conical) 2 times, Both times it came loose as I was screwing it to the model with the tissue in place(after curing overnight). The first time was with 3m Rely-X (which is what one of the large milling centers uses and the 2nd time I used Ivoclar Multilink Hybrid Abutment.
I sandblasted the mating surfaces and used Monobond on the Multilink
Can anyone tell me why it is coming loose and how to keep it from de-bonding?
Any help would be greatly appreciated as it is Saturday evening and patient is coming in Monday 8am
Thanks

Perhaps Pala Bond if you happen to have any or another acrylic primer you may have?

 

[Sda36]

Hi,
I have a full arch case due Monday morning. I have cemented the PMMA bridge to the titanium inserts (they are conical) 2 times, Both times it came loose as I was screwing it to the model with the tissue in place(after curing overnight). The first time was with 3m Rely-X (which is what one of the large milling centers uses and the 2nd time I used Ivoclar Multilink Hybrid Abutment.
I sandblasted the mating surfaces and used Monobond on the Multilink
Can anyone tell me why it is coming loose and how to keep it from de-bonding?
Any help would be greatly appreciated as it is Saturday evening and patient is coming in Monday 8am
Thanks

Put some dimmples in the housing area on the PMMA for the cement to lock into. Always[emoji4]

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[Sda36]

Hi,
I have a full arch case due Monday morning. I have cemented the PMMA bridge to the titanium inserts (they are conical) 2 times, Both times it came loose as I was screwing it to the model with the tissue in place(after curing overnight). The first time was with 3m Rely-X (which is what one of the large milling centers uses and the 2nd time I used Ivoclar Multilink Hybrid Abutment.
I sandblasted the mating surfaces and used Monobond on the Multilink
Can anyone tell me why it is coming loose and how to keep it from de-bonding?
Any help would be greatly appreciated as it is Saturday evening and patient is coming in Monday 8am
Thanks

Was it a cement to Ti failure or strictly cement to PMMA? Had that happen many years ago with Panavia even and since have always placed reciprocal undercut dimples in the housing area, regardless of material. You can also etch your Ti base with emax etch gel or other for maybe 30sec depending on strength.

 

[JohnWilson]

We do not cement to PMMA, we use cold cure tooth shade acrylic. .Its cheap and it works for us

If the plan is to harvest the CAD bases for the Final zirconia I will depending on the MFG and the style of the retention on the cad base I will either cut more or just blast 50 mic ALOX2 the ti base, steam clean, apply gc metal primer. Blast PMMA pattern steam clean dampen with monomer and mix and apply the resin. I have small hand clamps to hold the pattern down to the model as it sets to make sure we do not get any rebound. Obviously no soft tissue in place as I lute the resin/ti bases

We used to use flowable composite as its FAST but relying on a PMMA to composite bonder was not what I wanted to do. If the cad base is slipping from the pattern because the pattern is under tension to the soft tissue model you have to realize you are not getting any adhesion to the cad base. If the cement is stuck to the cad base and not the pattern than you are contaminating the pattern with the monobond. I do not know for sure but I do not think its intended for priming PMMA but do not quote me on that.

 

[Norm9]

Thanks to all. The Multilink Hybrid abutment is what I used last time. It was STUCK real good to the titanium base but came loose from the PMMA when I was tightening the screws with the restoration on the soft tissue model ( does have some rebound not a lot). I am trying it again with a clearfill se primer on the PMMA (best I had) and lots of undercut in the PMMA in the interface area. We will see if it will work. Milling center said use rely-x ...anyone have experience with that? If so how do you condition the PMMA? Dr just gave me a new batch of Rely-x, if this dont work I may try it again

 

[Sda36]

Thanks to all. The Multilink Hybrid abutment is what I used last time. It was STUCK real good to the titanium base but came loose from the PMMA when I was tightening the screws with the restoration on the soft tissue model ( does have some rebound not a lot). I am trying it again with a clearfill se primer on the PMMA (best I had) and lots of undercut in the PMMA in the interface area. We will see if it will work. Milling center said use rely-x ...anyone have experience with that? If so how do you condition the PMMA? Dr just gave me a new batch of Rely-x, if this dont work I may try it again

I would hope that you're good to go Norm !! Nothing wrong with some good old mechanical retention added in[emoji4]

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[Sevan P]

Thanks to all. The Multilink Hybrid abutment is what I used last time. It was STUCK real good to the titanium base but came loose from the PMMA when I was tightening the screws with the restoration on the soft tissue model ( does have some rebound not a lot). I am trying it again with a clearfill se primer on the PMMA (best I had) and lots of undercut in the PMMA in the interface area. We will see if it will work. Milling center said use rely-x ...anyone have experience with that? If so how do you condition the PMMA? Dr just gave me a new batch of Rely-x, if this dont work I may try it again

My issue with relyx was debonding on zr to ti, never had that issie with multilink. The reason it debonds from the pmma is there is no pmma bonder.

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[mikemed66]

We do not cement to PMMA, we use cold cure tooth shade acrylic. .Its cheap and it works for us

If the plan is to harvest the CAD bases for the Final zirconia I will depending on the MFG and the style of the retention on the cad base I will either cut more or just blast 50 mic ALOX2 the ti base, steam clean, apply gc metal primer. Blast PMMA pattern steam clean dampen with monomer and mix and apply the resin. I have small hand clamps to hold the pattern down to the model as it sets to make sure we do not get any rebound. Obviously no soft tissue in place as I lute the resin/ti bases

We used to use flowable composite as its FAST but relying on a PMMA to composite bonder was not what I wanted to do. If the cad base is slipping from the pattern because the pattern is under tension to the soft tissue model you have to realize you are not getting any adhesion to the cad base. If the cement is stuck to the cad base and not the pattern than you are contaminating the pattern with the monobond. I do not know for sure but I do not think its intended for priming PMMA but do not quote me on that.

I also use tooth colored jet acrylic it works great and it's cheap

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[DanM]

Thanks to all. The Multilink Hybrid abutment is what I used last time. It was STUCK real good to the titanium base but came loose from the PMMA when I was tightening the screws with the restoration on the soft tissue model ( does have some rebound not a lot). I am trying it again with a clearfill se primer on the PMMA (best I had) and lots of undercut in the PMMA in the interface area. We will see if it will work. Milling center said use rely-x ...anyone have experience with that? If so how do you condition the PMMA? Dr just gave me a new batch of Rely-x, if this dont work I may try it again

I used to grind undercuts on the inside of the PMMA where the ti inserts go with an inverted cone or round bur to lock the cement into the PMMA. Also have used the cold cure acrylic...but now I just use multilink, monobond, and SR Connect.

 

[Norm9]

I will be ordering sr connect
Thanks